Bishop. New evidence

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

Nope. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they're wrong.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

As I understand it, if you have witnesses to a claim, if possible, you get those witnesses to sign your CITAR. It couldn't have been all that much trouble, IF BB got his witnesses to sign it.

G'day Al,

I have probably looked at around 200 citars and BB's is the only one that I have seen with a witness signing the citar. That being said, there is probably a mountain of citars co signed by witnesses.

If what you say is correct though, I wonder why Bob Little didn't get BB to sign his?? The few citars I have of Little's where he has had a witness to his victories, none are co signed.

I am not saying BB did not deserve this victory, I believe if Little put pen to paper then it happened, I just think there has been an amazing amount of effort to verify BB's claim on this occassion.

Regards,

Andrew.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Billy_Bishop

Nope. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they're wrong.

Are you an idiot? Or are you developmentally challenged?
Let it GO, lad - let it GO!
You have children fer fuxake - get a GRIP.

SNAP OUT OF IT

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally Posted by Craig

Are you an idiot? Or are you developmentally challenged?...

Sort of like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Smith

G'day Al,

I have probably looked at around 200 citars and BB's is the only one that I have seen with a witness signing the citar. That being said, there is probably a mountain of citars co signed by witnesses.

My copies of a handful of 4AFC and 8RNAS citars are witnessed or countersigned by the squadron commander if by anyone other than the pilot. I would have thought it very unusual for a citar to be witnessed or co signed by a member of another squadron - unless that squadron shared the airfield with that of the citar maker. A good point, Andrew.

[alex_revell]

Andrew,
In an old Cross and Cockade GB Vol 7 no.1 (1976) article on Little, Douglass Whetton said that on 12th July 1917 Little teamed up with Bishop and they joined in a fight between some Nieuports and Albatri. Little saw Bishop shoot one down which crashed at Vitry. They then both attacked another Albatros and the pilot waved a white handkerchief or something so they stopped firing. But the German pilot then turned east so Little opened fire and thought he had wounded the pilot. Little then attacked another Albatros which went down ooc and was confirmed by Bishop and the other pilots in the fight. Whetton then says. Quote: 'Bishop's own account of this fight was terse indeed and Little was under the impression that Bishop begrudged him his victory. Whether this was correct or not, Little treated the Canadian with some reserve after this.' EOQ
Have you any more details about this or can you enlarge upon it in any way.

[MikeW]

Is Douggie Whetton regarded as a reliable source these days? I know one shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but there are a lot of people and organisations that wish they had never had any contact with Mr Whetton.

I will see what Bob Little wrote up in his log book for the 12th July, he normally went into great detail when there was anything interesting to report. If there is anything I'll post it tonight.

Mike

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Smith

G'day Al,

I have probably looked at around 200 citars and BB's is the only one that I have seen with a witness signing the citar. That being said, there is probably a mountain of citars co signed by witnesses.

If what you say is correct though, I wonder why Bob Little didn't get BB to sign his?? The few citars I have of Little's where he has had a witness to his victories, none are co signed.

I am not saying BB did not deserve this victory, I believe if Little put pen to paper then it happened, I just think there has been an amazing amount of effort to verify BB's claim on this occassion.

Regards,

Andrew.

I agree it does seem odd that BB would go the extra mile for getting confirmations when he had witnesses. But it does make you think about some things, doesn't it.

[MikeW]

Little’s grammar and spelling both get a bit ragged at times, but neither detract from his report of the encounter

12/7/17 12.35pm N6378 10000ft


While on Special Mission I observed a Nieuport west of Douai, we met and then went east together when I observed a formation of Nieuports fighting with some Albatros scouts. I joined in the fight.

During the fight I saw Capt. Bishop RFC shoot down an EA which crashed near Vitry.

Capt Bishop and myself then attacked another ea and during the fight the German pilot wave a white handkerchief or something so I stopped firing at it but seeing that he turned east I opened fire on him, I think he was wounded, he dive down and went away very low.

Later I attacked another ea which got into a spin and went down out of control. I could not watch him for long as I was then attacking and being attacked by other ea. Capt Bishop and others who took part in the engagement state that he was undoubtedly OOC.

Originally Posted by Vin

My copies of a handful of 4AFC and 8RNAS citars are witnessed or countersigned by the squadron commander if by anyone other than the pilot. I would have thought it very unusual for a citar to be witnessed or co signed by a member of another squadron - unless that squadron shared the airfield with that of the citar maker. A good point, Andrew.

G'day Vin,

Good to hear from you mate. I really think that a lot of effort was put into making sure this citar was squeeky clean. As a rule the CO always signed the citar, on one citar of Littles it has him signing as the pilot and then he signs as CO.

I stated a few years ago that I believe this citar holds the key to the BB controversy and I still believe that.

Regards,

Andrew.