Who killed the Red Baron?

I thought Albert ball was shot down by an AA gun wile trying to escape a two seater?

[Soderbaum]

Hi Shooter

The good thing about this Forum is that it actually leads to an increased knowledge... ...and I dont have any negative feelings that many of us(me included) has a low knowledge regarding specific incidents...

BUT, the facts which exist about when LvR brought down Ball was very well described in a very long thread* about 1,5 Years ago, which I think was called simply "Lothar" or similar...

However, the only known person who have had access to original documents was a British author who wrote about Ball in the mid 1930s. He cite "parts" from the original victory(and also "parts" from the witnesses reports) but sadly(or intally) he dont publish the complete report..
He and other (like some of thoose participated in the thread) also draw "wrong" conclusions from the known material in my meaning...

From the material he received from Berlin, Balls name is mentioned in LvRs victory report, and if I remember correct also the s/n of his a/c...so what´s the problem...?

After publishing the book his documents seems to have disapeared...

*there also exist at least one more good thread to my knowledge, which was discussed about two Years ago...


Gunnar

[Shooter]

Originally posted by Sopwith Camel@Jul 20 2004, 04:39 PM
[b] I thought Albert ball was shot down by an AA gun wile trying to escape a two seater?

Ask Gunnar for certain, but it is my information that Ball became disoriented while inside a cloud and was a victim of vertigo. He became inverted and when he tried to pull up, he actually ended up doing a split-S at low altitude. He therefore flew his SE-5a directly into the ground at high speed.

At least that is what happened by the limited information that I have read.


Shooter sends

[Alan]

Per Norman Franks (who has been seen on these boards as late...) in his Under the Guns of the German Aces:

Lothar von Richthofen had originally claimed a Triplane on this day and at this time - the claim clearly recorded as such in the Nachrichtenblatt. The fact is, however, that no Triplanes were lost on this evening. News of Ball's death quickly reached Berlin and the location of the wrecked SE5 was similar to that of Lothar's 'phantom' Triplane, it hardly took a quantum leap of imagination to link the two. The propaganda value to the German High Command was immense......Whatever the truth in the matter Lothar was formally credited with the victory...

This is where I draw my limited knowledge from, Shooter. No where else. I just consulted Kilduff's Richthofen: Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron and it gave an even less detailed accounting of the event.

As to the knowledge presented on the Aerodrome as a Whole, well, I may be a minnow among the majestic whales in amount of knowledge I possess, I don't make it a point to insult anyone's knowledge. Obviously, Shooter, I am not implying this to your posts.

[Shooter]

Originally posted by Alan@Jul 21 2004, 06:38 AM
[b] Per Norman Franks (who has been seen on these boards as late...) in his Under the Guns of the German Aces:

Lothar von Richthofen had originally claimed a Triplane on this day and at this time - the claim clearly recorded as such in the Nachrichtenblatt. The fact is, however, that no Triplanes were lost on this evening.* News of Ball's death quickly reached Berlin and the location of the wrecked SE5 was similar to that of Lothar's 'phantom' Triplane, it hardly took a quantum leap of imagination to link the two.* The propaganda value to the German High Command was immense......Whatever the truth in the matter Lothar was formally credited with the victory...

Funny, since we both use the same source.

Alan, as one minnow to another, how does this alter my statement that Lothar never claimed the wrecked SE-5, or Albert Ball as his victim? Whether or not he was credited with the victory, it was my understanding that he never submitted the claim.

Some of his staffelbruden were alleged to have gone to the wreck and shot it full of holes with their sidearms to "reinforce" this claim, but no one alleged that Lothar drew his sidearm and joined them.

This may be a distinction without a difference to some, but I seem to remember a footnote in some volume or another where LvR was reluctant to even discuss this event with anyone after the war. I was under the impression that he was embarrassed by what was an obvious fraud on the part of his superiors. For all of his flaws, I think of him as an honorable man, but that too could be a product of obvious propaganda.

But then again, my minnow memory has been known to be wrong before, and it would not surprise me if it happened once more. But I refuse to yield on the matter of his claiming Ball until Gunnar coughs up the original report. At least to him. I do not mind being corrected, but before I let him bitch-slap me for being an ignorant ass, he's gotta have the goods in his hand.

And then again, not being able to know the true content of his heart, perhaps I was mistaken as to his intent. Of your intent, there was not mistake, and I freely admit to you the possibility of my being in error.


Shooter sends

PS: There is a problem with many of the "official" opinions floating around the world of historians. This historian quotes that one, Keegan quotes Hastings, Kilduff quotes Franks. It is an incestuous environment where often the facts become buried in various self-supporting published accounts from various respected historians. At some point, it would be refreshing if Gunnar did produce the signed combat report, even if it proved him correct.

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally posted by Barrett@Jul 20 2004, 02:14 PM
[b] That's right...it was Bishop. But he couldn't identify the locale when he returned to base.

(Yeouch! Incoming&#33

Bishop knew exactly where he was!! He flew all the way from Britain in his SE-5A, expertly disguised as a Sopwith Camel (or was it a dog house?) just so he could shoot down the Red Baron!!!

[Alan]

Originally posted by Shooter@Jul 21 2004, 07:09 AM
[b]Alan, as one minnow to another, how does this alter my statement that Lothar never claimed the wrecked SE-5, or Albert Ball as his victim?

You know, it doesn't! B)

Sometimes my denseness blinds me to the facts....(ok, so sometimes the lightbulb flickers a few times before staying lit...)

I think we're saying the same thing...he never claimed it and he never denied it....Ergo.....

I'll be quiet now.

"Didnt Jimmy Hoffa serve in the same squadron with Roy Brown?" You see, I thought HE was the one that brought down the Baron... I even have his combat report right here in front of me...

Er... wait a minute... Sorry, thats my grocery list.

"Sorry, My Fellows...I could'nt resist!"

Have a fine day, All...

"Prost!"

Did the germans take any notes or photos of Albert Balls crashed plane?

[Ginger.]

In the same shootout did not Albert Ball knock Lothar down too?