Who killed the Red Baron?

[Alan]

Yes, LvR was Ball's 45th uncredited...

[DerDrache]

And Lothar received a lovely little hip wound from the encounter--can't remember if it was Ball or flak what done him in--and, fainting upon the sight of his own blood, couldn't remember a thing afterwards, including how he [crash] landed and was taken to a hospital. Loveable, woundable Lothar.

-Der Drache der Himmel . . . back from beyond the grave (or at least an extended sabbatical)

[Gregvan]

Hi There,

OK, here goes. Ball died on May 7, 1917. Yes, Lothar's Albatros was hit in the swirling series of encounters between Jasta 11 and 56 Sqn, and the Spads of 19 Sqn. , the Triplanes of No. 8 Naval Sqn., and who knows who else. Lothar was forced to land, but was not injured and flew again the next day. Lothar was wounded six days later, by ground fire, on the infamous 13th of May (NOT by Ball, obviously). It was the first of three times he would be wounded on the 13th.

Yes, Lothar claimed a triplane, which is the main BIG discrepancy everyone makes a big deal about, perhaps correctly. Chaz Bowyer's biography of Ball contains the following report by Lothar (so he says), though I've never seen the source cited, or seen it quoted elsewhere: "On May 7th I had a combat with many triplanes. One of them attacked me in a very determined manner. We fired a great deal at each other, and during the combat he came very close. He came down under my fire. My machine was damaged, and I landed with a dead propeller, near the hostile machine."
I have no reason to doubt Bowyer, who is a careful historian, but would like to see the original report, as apparently there is more.

Bowyer says that there is written evidence that photos were taken of the wreck but they have yet to be found. The wreckage was examined and the correct engine number for Ball's SE5 is quoted in Lothar's report. Lothar may have affixed Ball's name to his combat report, or maybe not (I don't know, haven't seen it), but he was not shy about claiming to have shot down Ball later. Manfred wrote that Lothar shot down Ball in "Der Rote Kampfflieger", and both Wilhelm Allmenroeder and von Schoenebeck of Jasta 11 claimed to have witnessed Lothar shooting Ball down, and wrote accounts of it (neither of them mention the type of airplane "Ball" was flying, though Manfred specifically says triplane).

Items salvaged from the wreck included the Vickers Gun No. A541, two Very pistols, part of the Vickers' ammo belt, some instruments, and a small section of petrol feed pipe slashed by a bullet scar. These were all sent to the Richthofen home/museum in Schweidnitz. Some time after the war, an American journalist visited Lothar at Schweidnitz, and Lothar showed him the memorabilia from Ball and said, "I shot him down." We published his article in OtF several years ago.

The very best account and investigation of Ball's death can be found in Alex Revell's High in the Empty Blue. Shooter's account as given here is pretty much what Alex determined. A German officer, Ltn. Hailer, saw Ball's SE5 emerge from a dark cloud at 200 feet, inverted, with the propeller stopped; he saw no other aircraft. The SE5 crashed. Hailer said that as far as he could tell, the SE5 had sustained no combat damage, though he certainly had been in action and this would be hard to determine from a crashed a/c. A nursing sister told Ball's father that she was present during an examination of the body, and that Ball died from natural causes, meaning no combat wounds were seen, apparently; Ball had a broken back and leg. Hailer said, much later (in the 1960's) that revolver bullets were later fired into the wreckage of the SE5 to simulate combat damage (Wow. I can hear the conspiracy theorists now!). Hailer concurred that Ball's body had no marks or scratches and had not been wounded in combat.

It seems Ball flew into the thick thunder cloud, became disoriented and the a/c became inverted. The 56 Sqn engineering officer told Alex that the early SE5 could not be flown inverted, "the large float chambered carvuretor of the early 150 hp Hispano-Suiza engine would immediately flood the air intake, choking and stopping the engine." Personally, I think he and Lothar had sparred a bit beforehand, but that Lothar didn't shoot him down; but that's just my OPINION.

I've plagiarized Alex enough. Read his book!

Greg

[Soderbaum]

Sorry Gregvan

But Alex book about this "incident" is nonsence as it is based on a so called statement by Hailer who actually NOT was an eye-witness. He in reality, which is proven by facts, was a witness who actually confirmed Lothars claim...

The so called statement by "old" Hailer, has NO historic value at all... I wonder what made(&#036 him to write such a statement...was he really in condition to write it and does his late statement exist in original...??
It would be interesting to knew the exact circumstances how this document was created..?
However it defintely goes directly against his earlier statement as witness and he was NO eye-witness, instead he was a technical witness.
Other German ground troops verified that Lothar brought down this a/c acording to what is known of original material...

The fact that Alex use this document in his book is bad research in my meaning...!
He like others ought to knew that no new information has came out since mid 1930s...!

With rather certainty it does not exist any photos at the crash site as it had begun to darkened at the time of the time Ball fell and soon began to rain which continue the next day. On 8 May Balls a/c and the other SE 5 brought down was picked up by some fellows(including Hailer) of FAA 292b. It was still no photo weather. The wreckage however might be photographed at the a/d of FAA 292b or the AFP. It is unsure if the a/c was brought directly to the AFP..

People, have to accept the original facts. There was only one German claim (with no claims from Flak or ground troops) and one British loss at this location and time...so still what´s the problem...?


Gunnar

[NeilE]

Gunnar;

So what does this original source material say? Do you have it or not? What is the source of the material from "Mid 1930's Germany"? How verifiable is that? Also given the political circumstances of mid 1930's Germany, how reliable is that information?

What are you alluding to vis a vis "old" Hailer's condition? Why was Hailer a "technical witness" only? How does Hailer confirm Lothar's claim?

The ground troops confirmed Lothar's claim in what document? What is the source for this statement?

I'm confused and it would be nice not to be...


All the Best

Neil

[Shooter]

Well...there...I feel a whole lot better, Greg.

And, Gunnar, if I was a little bit quick to shoot from the lip back there, I do apologize. I get scratchy sometimes, and it shows. Instead of getting more tolerant as I age, I sometimes act like an ******* so really, I am sorry if I climbed up your airframe.

I regard the whole process out here to be one of learning. And when I begin to take myself too seriously...well, you know.

The Ball story is one of the more intriguing from the Great War. It has always held my attention.


Shooter sends

PS: Gunnar, you need to lighten up about the claims and the wreckage. This would not be the first time that a driver claimed an a/c that did not crash and an aircraft crashed that was not claimed all at the same time. However, when you find that report signed by Lothar for an SE-5 with Ball in the cockpit, it will put this all to rest. The ball is in your court.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Neal

Gunnar;

So what does this original source material say? Do you have it or not?

Please read my previous post where I state that Kiernan did received this material from Berlin in early 1930s. He also name the person in Berlin who helped him getting this material. But it is also rather clear that Kiernan was not "satisfied" with the material, as it probably did not gave him the answers he(or the British public) wanted...!

The "parts" of the original victory report and the witnesses report Kiernan "choose" to publish are well described by Vin in the earlier threads on this Forum mentioned by me...

Germany"? How verifiable is that? Also given the political circumstances of mid 1930's Germany, how reliable is that information?

Copies of original material from the War always have a very high historic value despite from where or from whom it comes...

Sadly in cases like this, authors/researchers etc actually seldom use the available original sources which exist...


Gunnar

[Alan]

So, Sopwith Camel, you can see why it is Good Advice to not mention certain things around here!


If you really want some fireworks, try asking about Billy Bishop or Herman Goering....

[Barker]

Frank Luke shot both of them and then shot himself.

[Gregvan]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for that additional information, Gunnar. I stand corrected.

This all gets curiouser and curiouser.

Greg