Gotha Killers

[Graeme]

Contey,

Rather more than 3 Gotha claims by UK-based pilots can be identified:

07-Jul-17, 11:30 Off Ostend, Flt Sub-Lt R H Daly, RNAS Manston in Triplane N5382, Gotha GIII In Flames

12-Aug-17, 20:00 Off Southend, Flt Cdr H S Kerby RNAS Walmer in Pup N6440, Gotha GIV Destroyed

22-Aug-17, 10:45 Off Margate, Flt Cdr H S Kerby RNAS Walmer in Pup N6440, Gotha GIV Destroyed

22-Aug-17, 11:20 Off Dover, Flt Sub-Lt E B Drake RNAS Manston in Camel B3844, Gotha GIV Crashed

18-Dec-17, 19:30 Off Folkestone, Maj G W Murlis-Green, 44 RFC in Camel B5192, Gotha GIII Crashed

28-Jan-18, 22:10 Wickford, Capt G H Hackwill in Camel B2402 and 2nd Lt C C Banks 44 RFC in Camel B3827, Gotha GV 938/16 Captured

19-May-18, 23:26 Isle of Sheppey, Capt C J Q Brand, 112 RAF in Camel D6423, Gotha GIV Captured

20-May-18, 00:20 East Ham, Lt A J Arkell + 1/AM A T C Stagg, 39 RAF in F2B C4636, Gotha G Captured

20-May-18, 00:30 Frinsted-Harrietsham, Lt E E Turner + Lt H B Barwise, 141 RAF in F2B C851, Gotha GV 979/16 Captured

07-Jul-18, 13:00 Girdler Lightship, Lt F A D Grace + Lt G Murray, 50 RAF in AW FK8 B247, Gotha G Crashed

Something like 16 more were claimed by various RNAS/RFC/RAF units on the Western Front between 23 April 1917 and 26 September 1918 - I'll post details when I have more time to isolate the information from my database.

Graeme

[Shredward]

Graeme,
Lloyd Breadner knocked down a GIII from KgIII/15 near Vron after it flew over his aerodrome at Marieux 23/04/17. Will Barker had a go at one 24/10/17 over Ypres, stopped one engine, saw it gliding steeply down, but did not claim it. Would love to see details of these, and any other Gotha encounters you have, particularly those over the Front.
regards,
shredward

[Soderbaum]

Hi Contey

I think that the Kogenluft made an investigation about the high losses of crashed aircrafts in landings from KG/BG 3 after raids against England, I dont think that "they" came to the same conclusions as you, that it was due battle damage... ???

Graeme, I have the claim made by 50 sq dated in 1917, but I could be wrong about that...

8)
Gunnar

[Graeme]

Shredward, Gotha claims on the Western Front that I have listed are:

23-Apr-17, 10:30 SE Vron, Flt Cdr L S Breadner, 3 RNAS in Pup N6181, Gotha GIV Captured

25-May-17, 18:30 N Westende, Flt Sub-Lt A J Chadwick 4 RNAS in Pup N6176 and Flt Sub-Lt L F W Smith 4 RNAS in Pup N6168, Gotha G Broke Up

25-May-17, 18:30 N Westende, Flt Lt G M T Rouse, 4 RNAS in Pup N6198 and Flt Sub-Lt E W Busby 4 RNAS in Pup N5196, Gotha G Broke Up

04-Jul-17, 08:30 NW Ostende, Flt Sub-Lt S E Ellis, 4 RNAS in Camel N6337, Gotha G Out of Control

04-Jul-17, 08:30 Off Ostende, Flt Cdr A M Shook, 4 RNAS in Camel N6363, Gotha G In Flames

22-Jul-17, 10:40 NW Ostende, Capt B E Baker + Lt G R Spencer, 48 RFC in F2b A7146, Gotha G Crashed

29-Sep-17, Flt Sub-Lt L H Slatter, SDF in Pup N6179, Gotha G Forced to land

18-Oct-17, 14:30 N Passchendaele, Flt Cdr R P Minifie, 1 RNAS in Triplane N5454, Gotha G Out of Control

28-Oct-17, 2nd Lt Jones + 2nd Lt Watson, 4 RFC in BE2c, Gotha Out of Control

12-Dec-17, 14:15 N Frelinghem, Capt W W Rogers, 1 RFC in Nieuport B6825, Gotha G Broke Up

28-Jan-18, 22:10 Frunds Farm, 2nd Lt C C Banks 44 RFC in Camel B3827, Gotha G Captured

02-Aug-18, 00:45 E Guizancourt, Capt S Cockerell, 151 RAF in Camel C6717, Gotha G Crashed ?

10-Aug-18, Lt C R W Knight, 151 RAF in Camel ? and Lt J H Summers, 151 RAF in Camel B5412, Gotha G In Flames

23-Aug-18, 00:35 Beauquesne, Lt W Aitken, 151 RAF in Camel D9445, Gotha GVb Crashed

24-Aug-18, 22:20 Arras, Capt D V Armstrong, 151 RAF in Camel C6713 and Lt F C Broome, 151 RAF in Camel F6102, Gotha GVb Captured

13-Sep-18, 21:25 Bapaume, Capt W H Haynes, 151 RAF in Camel E5142, Gotha ? In Flames

26-Sep-18, 23:00 Arras, Lt T R Bloomfield, 151 RAF in Camel F6084, Gotha ? In Flames

If there any that I've omitted, I'm sure Frank will fill in the gaps.

Gunnar, the 50 Sqn combat did indeed take place in 1917 (slip of the finger, I'm afraid) - Frederick Arthur Darien Grace and George Murray both receiving the Military Cross (announced in the London Gazette of 18 December 1917) “In recognition of gallantry and distinguished service in connection with anti-aircraft service in the United Kingdom.”

Graeme

[Shredward]

Thanks Graeme,
That's exactly what I needed.
regards,
shredward

Soderbaum
The 'conclusions' I came to came from "The War In The Air" by Raleigh and Jones, Oxford University Press, 1934, Volumes III and V.
"Based on Official Documents By Direction Of The Historical Section Of The Committee Of Imperial Defence"

It seems logical that so many crashed landings would be the result of damage from AA or aircraft attack. Gothas were tough critters and many would make it home only to crash on landing, much as B17s in a later war.

[Dave_Kent]

Hello:

While we are on the subject, there is a photo, ahich appears in THE FIRST WAR PLANES, Barrett, and is credited to the Imperial War Museum. The book is one ofmy HOW DID YOU GET STARTED? entries from many threads ago.

The photo claims to show the Nieuport of Captain W. W. Rogers beside the Gotha he shot down on 12 Dec. 1917.

A great photo except that:
- The Gotha Rogers destroyed broke up in the air, this one is more or less intact,
- Rogers landed at his airfield, not beside the Gotha
- Rogers flew a Nieuport 27, this looks more like an N 17
- There is no over wing Lewis, so maybe this is a French scout

There are likely other things wrong as well that others among you can spot.

So, if it is not what it claims, what is it?

A real photo of a real event or a fake?

Thanks

Dave

[Darryl]

Just to add to Grame’s superb information::



23-Apr-17, 10:30 SE Vron, Flt Cdr L S Breadner, 3 RNAS in Pup N6181, Gotha GIV Captured

---Serial 610/16
---G 23
---KG III/15
---Off Stev Alfred Heinder, Lt Karl Scheuren, Lt Otto W?? all POW



12-Dec-17, 14:15 N Frelinghem, Capt W W Rogers, 1 RFC in Nieuport B6825, Gotha G Broke Up

---serial unknown
---G 99
---Bogohl 3
--- Lt Buelowis, Htpm Kleine, Lt von der Nahmer, Gefr Weber all KIA




10-Aug-18, Lt C R W Knight, 151 RAF in Camel ? and Lt J H Summers, 151 RAF in Camel B5412, Gotha G In Flames

? ? ?
---serial unknown
---G/1st Brigade/12 as “forced to land” near Caucourt
---unit unknown
---Lt Meyhoffer, Vfw Schmeier, Vzfw Wettig all POW.



23-Aug-18, 00:35 Beauquesne, Lt W Aitken, 151 RAF in Camel D9445, Gotha GVb Crashed

---922/18
---G/3rd Brigade/11
---Bogohl III/17
---Lt Kaltoff, Uffz Heer, Gef Thomas, all KIA



24-Aug-18, 22:20 Arras, Capt D V Armstrong, 151 RAF in Camel C6713 and Lt F C Broome, 151 RAF in Camel F6102, Gotha GVb Captured

---unknown serial
---G/1st Brigade/14 Bogohl III/15
---Lt Bratcke KIA, Vzfw Heinrich POW, Vzfw Lehmann POW


13-Sep-18, 21:25 Bapaume, Capt W H Haynes, 151 RAF in Camel E5142, Gotha ? In Flames

---? ? ? Friedrichshafen G III
---G/3rd Brigade/21 same night Capt EP McKay 151?
---No record of a Gotha?


26-Sep-18, 23:00 Arras, Lt T R Bloomfield, 151 RAF in Camel F6084, Gotha ? In Flames

---? ? ? Friedrichshafen G IIIa
--- G/3rd Brigade/27 located on 28/9/18. No Gotha in my records.






regards

Darryl

[Barrett]

Official Captions need to be approached with caution. Heaven only knows how some of 'em get mated to a particular photo, but I've seen some files with perhaps 25% errors. In naval circles, the National Archives had a wonderful series of shots of escort carrier a/c in 1945 that consistently mis-ID'd Wildcats and Avengers. Also, sometimes the photo was taken by a photog aboard one ship when the subject was from another, resulting in yet another error.
Not all archivists know their subject; many are generalists. Some, being civil servants, tend to do as little as humanly possible. The late Jeff Ethell and his daughter performed a tremendous service over a period of years by sorting out miscellaneous files at Nat'l Archives. He told of one large box simply labled "1953" which apparently was the year the photos were lumped together. The subjects covered almost 20 years!

[Rick]

23-Apr-17, 10:30 SE Vron, Flt Cdr L S Breadner, 3 RNAS in Pup N6181, Gotha GIV Captured

---Serial *610/16
---G 23
---KG III/15
---Off Stev Alfred Heinder, *Lt Karl Scheuren, Lt Otto W?? all POW

Darryl,

* *Just for the sake of completeness, s/b Heidner, and the other is Otto Wirth. * * * * * *R.