Gotha Killers

30 July 2003, 11:33 AM

A few comments on "Gotha Killers":
Olynyk - It would have been unusual for any England-raiding Gothas to have been shot down by the USAS since the first American Squadron (94th) didn't reach the Front until April, 1918.
Cspellman - You use the term "Giant", but I hope you realize that there was a significant difference between Gothas and Giants, the latter, although accompanying Gothas on many bombing missions, were much larger. These included the Zeppelin/Staaken, the Siemans-Suckert RVIII, known as 'Riesenflugzeug', and others built by Gotha.
No Giants operated on the Eastern Front.

Soderbaum · 30 July 2003, 11:48 AM

Hi Darryl

I am curious about the claim made by 151 sq on 10 Aug 1918. Did their combat reports verify a location within allied lines..?
It also a slight discprency between Flames and forced to land..

I mean could the crew have been brought down by AA or other reasons..?
And BG 3 was stationed a long way north but they possible helped the troops in the Somme area in the night from 10 to 11 Aug...

I have not counted the exact time, but I would say that the two German units flying "Giants" actually were stationed longer on the Eastern front then on the Western...

8)
Gunnar

Graeme · 30 July 2003, 01:01 PM

Gunnar

Not wishing to steal Darryl's thunder, but the entry in the RAF Communique for 10 August 1918 reads:

"Capt A B Yuille, 151 Sqn, saw a hostile machine caught by several searchlights, and getting to close range, fired a burst of 75 rounds. The EA opened fire on him from below the fuselage. Capt Yuille then fired three more bursts at 25 yards range when the EA caught fire under the observer's seat. Shortly afterwards the whole machine burst into flames and fell on our side of the lines."

Graeme

Graeme · 30 July 2003, 01:16 PM

I should have added that Yuille was flying Camel D6573, the combat was timed as 23:50 and the location quoted as being west of Talmas. I have seen this identifed as a Staaken RXIV.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find further details of the claim by Knight and Summers. However, an article on No 151 Squadron appeared in one of the Cross and Cockade (GB) Journals. I'll see if I can find it and will report any additional information.

Not padding, really

Graeme

Rick · 30 July 2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

I have not counted the exact time, but I would say that the two German units flying "Giants" actually were stationed longer on the Eastern front then on the Western...

Agreed. R.

Rick · 30 July 2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

I should have added that Yuille was flying Camel D6573, the combat was timed as 23:50 and the location quoted as being west of Talmas. *I have seen this identifed as a Staaken RXIV.

Rfa 501 lost a Giant reported as of 11Aug18. The entire crew was KIA. R.

Cigogne · 30 July 2003, 02:23 PM

Eastern Front...

There were at least two Riesenflugzeuge of the Staaken type, and also Siemens Schuckert R-type in the East. Stationed at Alt-Auz was the VGO Staaken and the RML1. The RML 1 aircraft made some raids against Russian positions during the Angernsee battle. It later crashed.

Also active on the Eastern Front were smaller twin engine bombers as well, the Rumpler G.I-III series, Albatros G-types, and Friedrichshafen G.I-II... as well as possibly others.

Cigogne

Darryl · 30 July 2003, 03:31 PM

Graeme,

I shall never forgive you

,

Rick,

Thanks for the correction/completion. I was reading from my "notes" copy and the edge was cut off old Otto!

Gunnar,

I'll try to dig out the CITAR tonight

very best to you all

Darryl

BTW, I neglected to quote source...C&C USA G Numbers articles, Bill Puglisi 1st article Vol 10/2 , second a couple of issues later.

Frank_Olynyk · 31 July 2003, 01:03 AM

Gunnar and Graeme,
I show the claim of Knight and Summers as being that of Yuile. My reference is RAF19 (Y only); CR #17, #15, #18, #16, #20: Air 1/1227/204/5/2634/151Sqdn-17 (No), 19, 18 (No), 20 (No), 21 (No). 1 mile west of 22 Lighthouse, Talmas. Knight was in D6660 and Summers in B5412. Also participating in the combat was Lt. W Aitken in D9445, and Lt. M S Cook in C1629. The aircraft was recorded (in the CRs) as a "TE, double tail".

I believe the "No" shown after some of the combat report numbers (sequence numbers for 151 Squadron) indicate that the individual is not to be noted in the Communique. I see this on many indecisive CRs, and OOCs after they stopped listing them in the Communique.

Frank.

Darryl · 31 July 2003, 04:12 AM

Graeme, Gunnar, Rick, Frank
Yuille's victory was most probably :

Straaken R.XIV *43/17 recorded as G/3rd Brigade/10
North of Amien (Talmas is 10 miles north)

It was from Rfa. 501 ?

Lt Braun, Off Stv Buth, Lt Corty, Fl Donnemaier, Fl Fonfobert, Gefr Reuter & Fl Schneidersmann all killed.

-----------------------------------------
The "forced down " G/1st Brigade/12 may have been a Gotha engaged by Lt HA Sparks near Abbeville, it came down at Caucourt..on a more or less direct course back to the lines.

He was not awarded a victory for this aircraft. * *

It would be interesting to know from which unit and base it came, along with the time it came down. That may provide further clue.

Actually reading the CITARs it is quite obvious that Summers et al claimed the same aircraft at which Yuille fired

Not sure how many Sparks claimed all together.

regards

Darryl