Gotha Killers

cspellman · 28 July 2003, 08:58 AM

I canot seem to remember nor locate the names of the few pilots who were able to bring down these beastly bombers. I believe some of them flew for the RNAS in '17. I am sure there were some French pilots who also shot a few down. If anyone remembers please give me a refresh.

Barrett · 28 July 2003, 12:50 PM

Murliss-Green? and Nungesser.

cspellman · 28 July 2003, 01:21 PM

Thanks Barrett. Did either of these pilots describe the shoot-down(s)?

Barrett · 28 July 2003, 08:23 PM

Murliss-Green might have; I don't know if Nungesser wrote anything but extremely brief encounter reports.
Maj. Gilbert W. Murliss-Green flew Camels in No .44 Sqn on home defence; bagged his bomber 18 Dec 17. The crew from Bogohl 3 was captured.

Frank_Olynyk · 28 July 2003, 08:50 PM

I show 29 Gotha's (of one flavor or another) claimed as decisive combats by the RFC/RNAS/RAF. Claims by Camel's predominate, followed by Pups, BF2Bs, and Triplanes, with single claims by a Nieuport 27, and an AW FK8. The type claimed is not necessarily correct; the one Gotha claimed in Italy by Mitchell, with Scaroni & Breda of the Italians, is listed in the new book Italian Aces of World War I (Gentilli, Iozzi, Variale) as an AEG G.IV.

The French appear to have claimed three. One by Nungesser, and another by Guynemer shared.

I do not show any by the USAS.

These counts are limited to those actually identified as Gothas. They could just appear as TE aircraft, or as multi-engined aircraft.

Frank.

Shredward · 29 July 2003, 02:57 AM

Frank,
Would you please post first and last dates for these encounters, especially any over the Western Front, as well as any circumstances of these encounters (time, location etc) ?
cheers,
shredward

Barrett · 29 July 2003, 05:59 AM

Yo, Frank: while we're at it, two recent egrams to you were kicked back undeliverable and one delayed. The problemos occurred both before and after our exchange about Korean War group COs.

29 July 2003, 07:09 AM

On May 25, 1917, the first Gotha raid on England was made by 21 Gotha GIVs. From then on until the last raid on May 19, 1918, there were 23 Gotha raids, each consisting of from 4 to 38 aircraft. In the course of the raids, 22 Gothas were destroyed, 12 by anti-aircraft fire and 10 by aircraft. 42 more crashed on landing on the return flight probably due to damage from AA or aircraft.
Credit for those shot down by Defense Aircraft is difficult since the British usually attacked in flight strength, making it a cooperative effort. There are three occasions when the individual(s) are known: December 18, 1917, Capt. Murlis-Green; May 19, 1918, by Major F. Sowery, 143 Squadron, along with Lt. E.E. Turner and Air Mechanic H. Barwise in a Bristol of 141 Squadron; and on the same raid another Gotha was shot down by Camel pilot Capt. C. Brand of 112 Squadron.
One of the reasons for placing Lewis guns on the upper wing was because it was considered dangerous to fire explosive or incendiaries through the propeller. Murlis-Green was temporarily blinded when a tracer hit his propeller.
Camels eventually came to be preferred for Home Defence rather than S E 5as and Bristols because the latter were difficult to land at night on small fields. Also, rotaries could be flown off without the need for warm-up.
In both airship and aircraft raids on England, more people were killed or injured by falling shrapnel from the AA guns than by the bombs.
Incidentally, why were Gothas more "beastly" than Handley-Page 0/400s or the later 0/1500 which was scheduled to bomb Berlin and stopped only by the Armistice?

cspellman · 29 July 2003, 07:37 AM

I only called them beastly based on the English view of them. *Size wise, they were not extraordinarly large. *Good information by the way. *Now, I wonder how many attacking fighters were claimed by Gotha crews. *Apparently these were hard bombers to shoot down and dangerous to attack due to the gunner's belly tunnel.

Speaking of that, I understand that no Ilya Mourometz bomber was ever brought down due to enemy action and only a few crashed in accidents. *I once read something somewhere on how, during a fierce engagment on the Eastern Front, a swarm of German fighters took one swipe after the next on one of these bombers and no measure of bullets could bring it down though it was hit repeatedly. The bomber crew apparently shot down at least four of the fighters during the engagement. *I wish I could remember where I read this!!

Quote:

On May 25, 1917, the first Gotha raid on England was made by 21 Gotha GIVs. From then on until the last raid on May 19, 1918, there were 23 Gotha raids, each consisting of from 4 to 38 aircraft. In the course of the raids, 22 Gothas were destroyed, 12 by anti-aircraft fire and 10 by aircraft. 42 more crashed on landing on the return flight probably due to damage from AA or aircraft.
Credit for those shot down by Defense Aircraft is difficult since the British usually attacked in flight strength, making it a cooperative effort. There are three occasions when the individual(s) are known: December 18, 1917, Capt. Murlis-Green; May 19, 1918, by Major F. Sowery, 143 Squadron, along with Lt. E.E. Turner and Air Mechanic H. Barwise in a Bristol of 141 Squadron; and on the same raid another Gotha was shot down by Camel pilot Capt. C. Brand of 112 Squadron.
One of the reasons for placing Lewis guns on the upper wing was because it was considered dangerous to fire explosive or incendiaries through the propeller. Murlis-Green was temporarily blinded when a tracer hit his propeller.
Camels eventually came to be preferred for Home Defence rather than S E 5as and Bristols because the latter were difficult to land at night on small fields. Also, rotaries could be flown off without the need for warm-up.
In both airship and aircraft raids on England, more people were killed or injured by falling shrapnel from the AA guns than by the bombs.
Incidentally, why were Gothas more "beastly" than Handley-Page 0/400s or the later 0/1500 which was scheduled to bomb Berlin and stopped only by the Armistice?

cspellman · 29 July 2003, 07:41 AM

Incidentally, from everything I have read thus far on the Giant Bomber night raids, not one was lost to fighter attack although I think I read a piece a while back about one going down due to AAA somewhere in France. Do correct me if I am wrong. Did Giants fly on the Eastern Front?