RAF Gunners-no training?

PFFF · 9 November 2004, 11:43 AM

Years ago Arch Whitehouse appeared briefly on a TV show on WW I figthers.
AS best I can remember he remarked he went straight from the trenchs to
the cockpit as a Observer. After approvel, did the RAF/RNAS really place
machine Gunners (from the Infantry) as Air Observers/Gunners without additional training?

Lufbery · 9 November 2004, 11:53 AM

Yes, at first.

In his memoir, Horses Don't Fly,

Frederick Libby has a similar experience. He went up with a pilot and had to hit an empty gas can on the ground. That was his try out. After that, he started flying with the squadron as a gunner. After completing so many missions, he was awarded his observers' wings.

I also know that at some point training for observers was formalized, but I'm not sure when.

Regards,

Michael · 9 November 2004, 08:34 PM

I have seen a picture of ground training using light rails and carts fitted with machine guns, shooting at targets on the move. I think this was in Canada.

TonyWilliams · 10 November 2004, 12:31 AM

From: 'Flying Guns – World War 1: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1914-32' by Emmanuel Gustin and myself:

"This may have been because gunnery training in the RFC (indeed, all training) was very poor. In July 1915 the RFC ordered that all pilots and observers had to receive machine gun training, but little was done about it because a suitable training organisation did not exist. An attempt in 1916 to set up a gunnery school at Loch Doon, Scotland, did not succeed because poor weather conditions limited its usefulness. Even in 1918 some pilots 'completed' the aerial gunnery training course without ever firing a gun in the air. Aircrew trained in Canada received better instruction, as an advanced gunnery school was established there in June 1917."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

Barrett · 10 November 2004, 02:25 PM

Even today, what passes for training is little more than familiarization and maintenance. If anything, it was far more slipshod in TGW.

Which is why civilian programs are so valuable. The founders of the NRA, being veterans of the Union Army, knew the abysmal state of military marksmanship and tried with varying degrees of success to provide a pool of knowledgeable shooters. It's the same today: I've now lost track of the number of military personnel seeking quality weapons training from NRA and other civilian sources. Just this week I heard from the commander of an army regiment who wants to send his budding snipers to a private facility in Arizona. The outfit has already trained SEALs and troopers from the 101st.

rammjaeger · 10 November 2004, 02:59 PM

>>Even in 1918 some pilots 'completed' the aerial gunnery training course without ever firing a gun in the air.<<

Some time ago I studied some German interrogation reports of captured British/Canadian/Australian airmen in WWI. The German intelligence officer underlined in one report the words of a captured gunner who claimed the same (compare quotation above).

Some month ago I bought the flight diary and the shooting diary of a German "Fliegerschütze". This gunner was trained from end of January to end of August 1917, made 65 training flights with many different machines and pilots and achieved good results in shooting exercises on the ground - but he failed in all execises when he was shooting from the air. Nevertheless he was sent to the front - and died after 3 month.

VBR
Rammjaeger

Rick · 10 November 2004, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

>>
Some month ago I bought the flight diary and the shooting diary of a German "Fliegerschütze". This gunner was trained from end of January to end of August 1917, made 65 training flights with many different machines and pilots and achieved good results in shooting exercises on the ground - but he failed in all execises when he was shooting from the air. Nevertheless he was sent to the front - and died after 3 month.

VBR
Rammjaeger

VERY interesting. Name, rank, and especially unit? I assume he was with a Schusta?? I'm excited!! R.

rammjaeger · 10 November 2004, 03:11 PM

Gefreiter Meinke, the first name was not given but I bet all money on Paul Meinke, Rick.

I forgot: he trained with FEA 11 Breslau, later with FEA 3 Gotha.
I don´t know his front unit.

Rick · 10 November 2004, 03:48 PM

Rammjaeger,

Thank you very, very much. I'll check him out. R.

Yes, that checks perfectly. Gefr. Paul Meinke (G), from AFP 4 to 21Sep17 to Schusta 10, where he was KIA on 1Dec17. That exactly matches your data. Thanks again. R.

Lufbery · 11 November 2004, 07:23 AM

Hi all,

One more note from Libby's Horses Don't Fly: Libby was an observer with No. 11 squadron RFC, flying in F.E.2bs. He got frustrated with the Lewis guns and worked with the squadron armorer to fix shoulder stocks to them to give him a better purchace on the weapon. From his account, the modification worked very well and all of the other planes in the squadron were outfitted the same way.

Interestingly, the Germans often retained the shoulder stock on their 7.92mm Parabellum machine guns used by their observers. So Libby wasn't the only one with that idea.

I think Libby also mentioned taking newer observers under his wing and trying to teach them what he knew. I'm sure a lot of that ad hoc instruction happened in most squadrons.

Regards,