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Old 27 January 2005, 10:16 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Lorenz, thanks much. IF it's the same man, Berthold Guthmann was another Schusta flyer, serving in Schusta 3. A little information can be found on him on the web. Search for his name, and you should be able to find a site dedicated too 'Jewish Flyers of WWI'. Fritz Beckhardt is also mentioned on this site. Hey, man, thanks for the information. R.
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Old 27 January 2005, 10:58 AM   #12 (permalink)
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thank you very much for your fast reaction with the interesting details of your grandfathers live! I guess now we know more about FB than ever before.

After reading your report I looked in my files and discovered four aviators of Kampf-Einsitzer-Staffel 5 landed with three aircraft in Rapperswil on 13. November 1918. Gustav Michels landed with an Albatros, Hans Weisbach and Ernst Brantin with a DFW-doubleseater and Fritz Beckhardt in a Siemens-Schuckert with serial number 8356/1917.

The military of Switzerland noted:
"b. Beckhardt, Fritz, geb. 27.V.89, von Wallertheim bei Mainz, Rennreiter, Vizefeldwebel, bei Kampfeinsitzerstaffel 5 (Lahr)"

As well the military wrote about the four Kest 5-aviators:
"Diese vier Flieger erklären übereinstimmend, ihre Staffel sei demobil gemacht worden und sie hätten den Befehl erhalten, die Apparate nach Friedrichshafen zu fliegen. Dabei hätten sie sich verirrt, da sie den Zürichersee für den Ueberlingersee gehalten hätten.
Alle vier wollen nach Deutschland zurückkehren."

Einige andere in der Schweiz nach dem 11.11.1918 gelandeten Flieger hatten um Asyl gebeten bis zur Klärung der politischen Lage in Deutschland bzw. zum Ende der Revolution.
Es wurde der Befehl gegeben die in diesen Nachkriegstagen gelandeten Flugzeuge an Deutschland zurückzugeben, ebenso alle Flieger, die nach Deutschland zurück wollten. Die Nichtrückkehrer sollten "gemäss Deserteurvorschriften zu behandeln (sein) und dem Territorialdienst übergeben" werden. Was nicht sehr freundlich klingt.

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Last edited by rammjaeger; 28 January 2005 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 28 January 2005, 11:42 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Hallo Lorenz,
erstmal vielen Dank für die Ergänzung des weiteren Lebenslaufes von Ihrem Großvater. Ist ist eine Weile her, als ich das Buch von Felix Theilhaber las. Aber den Namen Fritz Beckhardt habe ich mir gemerkt. Nicht nur,weil er zusammen mit seinem Flugzeug den Einband schmückt. Es ist wirklich eine traurige Geschichte, das sein ausgewähltes Zeichen, das für seinen Mut und seinem Kampfeswillen stand, ihn in seinem späteren Leben beinahe getötet hätte.

Thanks for infos about Vizefeldwebel Fritz Beckhardt.

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Old 1 February 2005, 12:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Thank you all.

Still I would like to know if anybody knows the Story of berthold Guthmann?

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Old 3 February 2005, 12:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rammjaeger
Hallo Lorenz,

If I am not mistaken Theilhaber did neither mention Kampf-Einsitzer-Staffel 2 (B. was there without any doubt) nor Kampf-Einsitzer-Staffel 5 (One source says he was there and claimed 2 victories against Breguets there).
Hello again,
I wonder about the source which mention that Beckhardt claimed two victories within Kest 5....?
Is there any corn of truth in this statement...?

Normally with vague statements like this, they very seldom could be verified... and therefor must be categorized as wishful thinking..

However, I have official German sources, like one from 22 Aug 18 which states that 7 enemy bombers where shot down on a raid against Karlsruhe... and I can with "positive" thinking only identify two "possible" victorious German flyers/candidates....Who shot down the other five bombers...???

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Old 4 February 2005, 03:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lorenz
I am loooking for informations about my grandpa Fritz Beckhardt who was a jewish pilot from 1916 until 1918 in WW1 serving in Jasta 26 and eventually in Jasta 11 ... flying with hermann goering ... who later in 1941 or sth. helped him to get out of prison and/or concentraion camp ... anything you know will be interesting and evtl. used in a film or book i am preparing thanx
Greeting Herr Lorenz; I'm afraid all I can offer is a photo of Fritz Bechardt sitting on the turtle deck of his Fok. Dr.I in Jasta 26. If interested please send me a PM.
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Old 12 February 2005, 02:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Fritz Beckhardt and Goering

My interest stems principally from the fact that, like Lorenz who started this thread, Fritz Beckhardt was my grandfather also.
Earlier on in this thread; on the subject of Fritz Beckhardt and Goering it states,
"Until now I cannot discover a direct link to Goering........."

When I looked up Jasta 26, [which FB flew with], and Jasta 27, [which Goering commanded], on the "Air Services" section of your excellent website, I noticed that between 2 November 1917 and 17 July 1918 the 2 Jastas shared the same aerodromes for seven and a half out of the eight and a half months, [Bavichove, Marckebe, Halluin, Vivaise and Mont Soissons Ferme].

I don't know much about such matters but am simply trying to reconcile oral family history with what is in the public domain. On a commonsense level it seems to me that there must have been a high level of day-to-day contact between the members of the 2 Jastas during those seven and a half months.

Is it known to what extent the pilots of 2 Jastas occupying the same aerodrome would have shared social areas, eating and sleeping arrangements etc?
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Old 12 February 2005, 09:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Fine observation!
Göring commanded Jasta 27 between 17 May ´1917 and 8 July 1918.
FB was with Jasta 26 from February to April 1918.
So both shared the same airfield at least between mid-February and 12 March if J 26 moved to Erchin.
A contact in this time (ca 4 weeks) was virtually unavoidable because both Jasta´s commanders were friends, both were on the same airfield and both had to share tasks in air combat.

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Old 13 February 2005, 02:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Hi all

I have that Beckhardt stayed in Jasta 26 until 20 May 18 when he was posted to AFP 4, a week later he was posted further to FEA 11.
Apparently his stay with FEA 11 was short (or changed to Kest 2?)...

However, I wonder if anyone knew when he was transferred from Kest 2 to Kest 5...?....otherwise he WW1 career seems well known (except the two possible missing victories..)

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Old 13 February 2005, 03:07 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Hi Gunnar,

his service times are maybe well-known to you

but main sources like The Jasta Pilots are rather unspecific about his times of service in the different units.

Your information indicates his time with potential contacts to Göring is longer than expected in my last post.

I don´t know about the time of his transfer from Kest 2 to Kest 5.

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Last edited by rammjaeger; 13 February 2005 at 03:09 AM.
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