Karl Stern

[rammjaeger]

The Canadian aviator Lt James Dale was reportedly murdered by a "Karl Stern" in WWII.

The same source claims Karl Stern was aviator in WWI and wounded on his head in action.

Anybody aware of a German aviator with this name?

VBR
Rammjaeger

[Michael]

I cannot find any R.C.A.F. casualty of that name. Also, Lieutenant was not an Air Force rank (Flight Lieutenant was, but it is abbreviated F/L).

There was a Flight Sergeant Gordon James Dale, but he is commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial, which sugggests his body wasn't recovered. He was an American serving in the R.C.A.F.

[rammjaeger]

If he was really murdered, wrapped in paper and secretly digged in then I would not expect his body to be recovered, Michael!

An error concerning the rank is easily possibel. American or not - he wore a uniform of the R.C.A.F., correct?

Can you find out the day of his loss (around 11 July, maybe 1944?)?

[Regulus]

Hi Rammjaeger,

He died 4/8/43.

There is a DALE, JAMES ATKINSON burried at RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY who died 25/08/1944, but he's from New Zealand.

He's the closest with that name around that date.

You can check yourself at :
http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/search.aspx

Best from Johan

[Rick]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

The same source claims Karl Stern was aviator in WWI and wounded on his head in action.

Anybody aware of a German aviator with this name?

VBR
Rammjaeger

Hannes,

I have a couple of Stern's without first names who could be our man. I have them in various KG's and BG's, no one WIA that I am aware. Pretty slim pickings. R.

[Michael]

We can rule out the F/S; he went into the North Sea in a Beaufighter, and the date's wrong as well.

I've checked "They Shall Grow Not Old", which is the final word on R.C.A.F. casualties (details for just about every casualty including aircraft serial and model, mission, place of burial, and cross-referenced by crew). Nothing matches.

[rammjaeger]

Hm, strange case!

The whole story was reported by a local historian who died in 1999.
BTW the local historian did not say it was murder but if I read the rifleman was a forrest ranger with WWI experience then I can not believe in an accident but more in another sinister case of "auf der Flucht erschossen".

If the US-Americans would have known about the case I am shure an investigation would have been started soon because the incident was in Bavaria and not Eastern Germany.

I would not exclude also the possibility of misidentification of the aviator by the Germans or wrong memory of the witnesses but who knows ...

A role with the Allied losses over Bavaria on or around 11 July 1944 could be helpful or the discovery of a WWI airman with name Karl Stern - possibly a Bavarian and maybe with a head wound from WWI.

[Regulus]

Hi Rammjaeger,

Is this the same text ?

8. Erschossener kanadischer Bomberflieger und seine Beerdigung

Am 11. Juli dieses Jahres musste ein Bombeflugzeug der Alliierte wegen Motorschaden notlanden oder stürzte ab, vermutlich bei Denklingen. Die Besatzung konnte sich mit dem Fallschirm retten. Drei der 8 – 9 Besatzungsmitglieder landeten in oder bei Gimmenhausen. Einer von ihnen, der Leutnant James Dale ein Kanadier, wurde von Karl Stern Förster in Ludenhausen erschossen. Er landete unweit der Gimmenhauser Kiesgrube, gegen Norden am Fuß des Hanges. Stern war selbst Flieger im 1. Weltkrieg und am Kopf verwundet.

James Dale, der erschossene Flieger, wurde ins Feuerwehrhaus gelegt und dann in einem Papiersack auf dem Friedhof begraben. Es war aber laut Schreiben von Penzing ein Sarg geliefert worden. Neben Pfarrer Manz, dem Messner Ferdinand Stork und mögliche anderen Personen, war auch der Ministrant Georg Ringmayr von H. Nr. 13 dabei, der mir dies nach seinem Wissen erzählte.

Or do you have possibly another version ? I've found this one on the Net.

Best from Johan

[rammjaeger]

It is the same version, Johan!

I continued to think about the text and now I wonder if the forrest ranger did shot the aviator who was still hanging in his parachute - even before the aviators legs were touching the surface of the air.

As well the reliability of some details of the report seems to depend a lot on the reliability of the Ministrant Ringmayr.

[Michael]

There is certainly the possibility of a mistake in the airman's name. The question then arises as to which air force. The rank of Lieutenant at first suggests that he might be USAAF, but then the identification of Dale as a Canadian makes no sense. I doubt Stern stopped to ask. While Americans in the RCAF would have nationality titles up (well, usually) the reverse wasn't true. I have little doubt that Dale was wearing Canada flashes.

Unfortunately the online Commonwealth War Graves search engine only lets you choose a year.

There are about 5 James Dales who crashed with the USAAF in 1944, according to this site: Crash reports

Unfortunately no dates are given.