Edward Mick Mannock

[lalonde]

I'd have to look up names and dates but Mannock tells in his diary of a certain colonel who specifically instructed he and fellow pilots to shoot the observers.
This makes sense too, as another balloon could be sent up but observers had to be trained and were fairly valuable from what I've read.
Was McLanahan's novel on topic? If so, where can it be gotten?

Rick L.

[NeilE]

Originally Posted by R Pope

All I've read about Mannock paints him as a Hun-hater due to his family dying in a Gotha raid. I don't think the chivalry bit meant much to him.

I've never seen mention of this in anything I've read on Mannock. It could be a bit of popular fiction I think. As for the chivalry myth generally, most pilots did what had to be done to survive and to contribute to their side's war effort. A lot of the "chivalry" was propaganda by both sides in order to make air fighting look more palatable than the blood soaked mess occuring on the ground.

Mannock was known for speaking his mind, sometimes outside the class-based 'decorum' of his time - but he was a socialist after all.

Regards

Neil

[Graeme]

Rick

FIGHTER PILOT, McScotch, Greenhill Greenhill, 1985, Vintage Aviation Library reprint, 248 pgs. It used to be available from Amazon.com.

R Pope

Mannock's family survived the war (it is said that his father collected Mannock's VC from King George V at Buckingham Palace only to sell it later). The reason for his "Hun-hating" was due to the treatment he had received while an internee in Turkey (the Germans then having a strong influence there).

Vin

I've seen several combat reports in which pilots admit firing into the basket before the envelope of the balloon rather than at the descending observer.

Graeme

[Vin]

And that makes sense, too, Graeme. The basket shot and envelope shot could be done in the one run and even if a second run was required, the envelope shot was at a big, stationary target. Coming back in again for a shot at a smaller, descending target, if it was still available, closer to the protecting ground fire, is unlikely but not for reason of chivalry.

[lalonde]

There is enough written history to confirm that chivalry did in fact exist and was not uncommon well into 1915 but faded away after that.
I could offer some reasons as to why: The first pilots were different from the later in several respects. None of them came from the trenches. Some were aristocrats who even owned their own planes. Others were romantics and eccentrics. By the time Mannock came on the scene, most of the earlies were killed off as I understand it. Moreover, the horrors of the war had jaded the next breed toward notions of chivalry, not to mention the hatred many felt toward the Germans.
One other factor in the demise of chivalry seems to be that the war became more and more desperate for both sides which would have made it a hinderance to the goal of victory.

Rick L.

[Ginger.]

Waving at a bloke before shooting him in the back is a strange take on the meaning of chivalry.

I have a US technical manual titled "Army Pursuit Tactics" which was published in the early 1920's. At that point in time they were essentially teaching WW1 air combat tactics and practices. At one point it quite specifically states that in attacking a balloon a pilot should make every effort, should the observer successfully bail out after you have flamed the balloon, to shoot the observer as he is descending in his parachute. It explains that, if you fail to kill or wound the observer, the enemy will inflate another of their balloons and he will very quickly be back in the air directing artillery or making other observations and your attack will have been fruitless. I have little doubt this was the official view of the French and British air units and the Americans would have been quickly schooled on this point upon arrival in the war.


Matt Witt

[Ginger.]

Hell of a lot of Archie to parambulate through just to pop a balloon.
That much firepower to protect a gasbag? Don't think so, it was the highly trained beady eyed Hun in the basket they were trying to look after.

[lalonde]

Ginger, I would say you've summed up chivalry very fairly. Waving at your opponent before shooting him in the back embodies the idea rather well, though I don't know of that ever happening. And yes, it is strange to us today.
Consider Ernst Udet who flew down to make sure his American was not harmed by German infantry and his wounds properly cared for, things of this nature.
Remember that chivalry had its roots in the Christian virtues of compassion toward the weak and kindness to one's enemies. Respecting your enemie's dignity as well as the value of his life, while at the same time trying to kill him, is the stuff of chivalry.

Rick L.

[Barrett]

Willi: "Our commanding officer believes in chivalry, Stachel."
Bruno: "To kill a man, and then salute him, I call that hypocrisy! If they kill me, I don't want anybody to salute."
Willi: (With arched eyebrow) "They probably won't."