British Seaplane Downed 1916 Palestine?

[Graeme]

Patrick

At the moment I'm going by notes I made some while ago, but after the Dardanelles evacuation the four aircraft carriers Ben-My-Chree, Anne, Raven II and Empress went off to Port Said where they came under the orders of the C-in-C East Indies Station. In April 1916, Empress was assigned to the East Mediterranean Command and participated in operations off the Bulgarian Coast, followed by patrols off the Turkish coast south of Smyrna.

I'm sure I've seen references to these carriers in various despatches; I'll see if I can locate anything useful.

Graeme

Originally Posted by Soderbaum

Hi Rick

I dont have the complete list of the claims from Bader which officially were confirmed as victories...
However, it seems that he had "fun beating up Aussies"...

On 20 Apr 17 he did shot down an Aussie, and the next day he followed up this with sending another down...however the German reports about this incidents are "confusing" as it could be interpret as it happened the same Day (double victory?)....?
As this happened during the time Göschel was serving within the unit, he ought to mentioned these successes..or...!?...or was the fact that the unit was "spread up" a reason that he did not mentioned it..?

I dont knew exactly when Flakzug 136 arrived to Palestina, but there is a "chance" that Bader was involved with the incident on 18 Jun 16 when three British a/c were shot down...??...anyone knews..?


Gunnar

I have two losses for 1 AFC April 20 & 21st, Lt. Norman Steele was brought down on the 20th flying Martinsyde 7472 was claimed by Flak No. 136 dying of his wounds. On the 21st Lt. Adrian "king" Cole was also brought down by Flak No. 136.

Andrew.

Thank you all for this extremely interesting information! I am very glad stogieman told me about this website!!!

Göschel's Militärpass is a bit vague about actual deployment, perhaps to be expected given such a tiny unit, and his 1937 Wehrpass simply repeats that vagueness, but Bavarian Flakzug 136 appears to have been the first flak unit in Palestine, arriving in time to take part in Friedrich Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein's raid across Sinai and over the Suez Canal in July-August 1916 (so noted). Göschel shows subsequent actions from the Battle of El Katia 4-5 August 1916 until the Second Battle of Gaza in April 1917.

The most information I have ever found on locations and personnel (as well as armament) of German flak units in the Turkish theater of operations was published in the "Mitteilungen des Bundes der Asienkämpfer" magazine issue of 1 February 1930 (volume XII number 2) by Hauptmann aD Schumann, who took over as CO Flak in the spring of 1918

These are the dispositions he reports for 1918. Because of chronic shortages (often no guns in a unit, no officers, or both) and with "all personnel sick" there was considerable shuffling around. Many of the officers noted below as "missing" in the collapse of September-October 1918 may have been taken prisoner-- I don't know, and Schumann did not clarify.

Flakzug 153 (European side of Constantinople): LtdR Richter, LtdR Henkelmann (latter to Palestine during the collapse)

Flakzug 19 (southern end Gallipoli peninsula): LtdR Brandt

In Palestine, Transjordan, Syria--

Flakzug 177 (Turkish 8th Army, coastal sector): Lt dR Przyzskowski (he and 6 men were killed by a direct hit from a bomb, he replaced by the LtdR Jahn mentioned below)

Flakzug 133 (Tulkerim) Oberlt dR Strauch (MIA October)

Flakzug 28 (Tulkerim)-- no guns, no officers!!! used as replacements

K.-Flak Batterie 15 (following with the Asienkorps): Oberlt Fulda, then Oberlt Lutz, with LtdR Hahn, LtdR Gläser (MIA October from Schumann's staff), Oberarzt Dr. Haase. Originally 2 guns, NONE by October, then received replacement guns in October and destroyed 2 tanks-- just as in WW2, as often ground support as flak

Flakzug 136 (Bavarian, covering entire front Nablus to Jerusalem for 7th Turkish Army): LtdR bader until sick as mentioned earlier, LtdR Wagner

Flakzug 142 (Jordan valley-- actually field artillery guns captured from the British and not "flak" at all): LtdR Wüsthoff

Officers on "light duty" in rear supplies: LtdR Jahn (Taurus until took over FZ 177, MIA October), LtdR Uber (no umlaut in name, at Aleppo, EK1 October on Schumann's staff, at that point serving as "infantry"), LtdR Held (Aleppo), LtdR Zölch (Damascus)

Schumann reported that he had FIVE guns on the entire Palestine front in September 1918. Just as everything was in total rout in October, Austin-Daimler trucks arrived, along with 9 field guns and 4 L/35 77mm flak guns. He credits FZ 136 with two aircraft shot down in 1918, but no details.

Flakzug 120 (Bavaria, from Macedonian Front, 77mm guns): LtdR Schunk, LtdR Lauth (MIA Octtober but I know he survived because somewhere in the magazines he shows as a BdAK member, I think first name Robert) and

LtdR Griessbach, LtdR Henkelmann (mentioned above), "newly promoted" LtdR Würker (to FZ 177 and MIA October) and LtdR Fechner (from Germany) arrived during the collapse as reinforcements.

This gives some idea of the weakness of German anti-aircraft forces in the Middle East 1916-18!

[Soderbaum]

Thanks very much Rick, impressing information..!

It seems that Schumann, I have a Saxon Hptm Schuhmann who might be the same man...?..., was Koflak F but also responsible for the units in Dardanellen area....?
As he perhaps was of Saxon origin, Hannes might have more information about him...?

It also interesting that Flakzug 136 was a Bavarian unit. In cases like this, information is probable available in the archive in München, and if we are "lucky" Reinhard might find the first name of Lt dR Bader and the date of his victories...
As Bader was very successful, he ought to have been a candidate for receiving Hohenzollern or some Bavarian awards...??

I also might have some added information of the different units mentioned...


Gunnar

[fliegertruppe]

Rick and Gunnar,

by my next visit in the Kriegsarchiv in Munich I will look to the Kriegsstammrolle on Flakzug 136.

Reinhard

I haven't been able to determine WHICH Schumann was Flak CO there. Not a Saxon-- I have Erhard Roth's work on all Saxon officers from Hauptmann up.

I agree, the two "stray" units seem to have somehow fallen under his command, since he mentions them, but not any of the other Flak units wandering the region!

Oddly enough, Bader did not even get the Crown to the Bavarian Military Merit Order 4th Class: I have the published roll which covers all those awards and 4X Class but only to Hauptleute up. He MUST have gotten the 4X Class, but isn't published as only a Lt dR. Nor do I find any Turkish awards gazetted to him, but then Göschel's wasn't either. I suspect the unit was so small it just fell through the Personal-Nachrichten cracks.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Rick

There was only one active Hptm Schuhmann (and no Schumann) serving within German Air Force in late spring of 1918...He is noted as Saxon and belonging to the Flakwaffe. Promoted Hptm 17 Mar 15 P2p and original regiment is given 8 FAR 78...

It is possible that the Palestina Schumann was either Hptm dR or was promoted in the summer of 1918...??

Reinhard, I am eagerly waiting for the possible information You can find...


Gunnar

[Intrepid]

As a note Oblt. Gerhard Felmy was also an ace.

Here are his victories.

Date / Location / Type
2 Dec 1916 / Rafah SE / Martinsyde G.100 7474

6 Apr 1917 / Weli Sheik Nurak / Martinsyde G.100 A1583 ?

16 May 1917 / Abu Ghalyun / Martinsyde

25 Jun 1917 / Kafiye / DH 1 A2623

8 Jul 1917 / Bet Hanun / B.E. 12a A6321

Interestingly his 2nd and 3rd victories were both over Capt. A. Murry Jones.

[Soderbaum]

Hi Intrepid

It was only Kogenluft who could confirm victories, and according to original sources "he" did NOT confirm more then 3 or 4 of Felmys claims...

Sadly but this is the truth...


Gunnar

[Intrepid]

Originally Posted by Soderbaum

Hi Intrepid

It was only Kogenluft who could confirm victories, and according to original sources "he" did NOT confirm more then 3 or 4 of Felmys claims...

Sadly but this is the truth...


Gunnar

You are right Gunnar.

I found the 2 Dec 1916 "kill" had Henshaw listed as the source.

The 6 Apr 1917 , 16 May 1917 and Jul 8 1917 victories are listed in the Nachrichtenblatt 10 May , 14 June, Aug 23 1917

The 25 Jun 1917 "kill" was found in Pro Air 1/1758/204/141/31