British Seaplane Downed 1916 Palestine?

I have the award documents and ID papers of the battery mechanic of Flakzug 136, a 20 man 37mm "pompom" socket mounted gun section, which downed a British sea plane in late November/early December 1916 over "Junction Station" (Latrun?), at the intersection of the Haifa-Jerusalem and Beersheba-Baghdad rail lines.

The document for his Turkish War Medal star (aka "Gallipoli Star" aka "Iron Half Moon") gives action date of 27 November 1916, but the section commander's 1930 memoir says "early December."

It was a two officer crew two-wings seaplane, launched from a mother ship off the coast. Another plane was driven off after three lucky shots put this one into a clump of cactus and the crew were taken prisoner.

Can anybody suggest what sort of plane this might have been and who the crew were?

[patrickmallahan]

Rick

My casualty database reveals that you are probably looking for F/S/L
Alfred James Nightingale RN (p) and Percy M. Woodland RNVR (o) downed in Short 184 8372 on 2.12.16 while on a recce flight from Ben-My-Chree. "Ramleh" (no guarantee) was their objective. I have too many references to cite here, but you might look at Dick Cronin's book, "Royal Navy Shipboard Developments" for confirmation. Nightingale was a Canadian and Woodland a famous jockey. I'm neither.

Patrick

[Graeme]

According to The Sky Their Battlefield, Nightingale and Woodland were from HMS Empress. On the same day, HMS Ben-My-Chree launched Short 184 number 8080, crewed by Flight Commander T H England and Captain J Wedgwood-Benn. Nightingale and Woodland were brought down by a direct hit over Ramleh; England and Wedgwood-Benn took part in the search for the missing crew.

Graeme

[Soderbaum]

Interesting information Rick

Regarding Nightingale I have that he eventually died of wounds, but TSTB does not give any hints in that direction...

The Germans did report that the Seaplane came down at El Ramleh, with the add on Syrian coast...

Do you have the name of the victorious German Flak shooter, was it recorded as his first victory...??


Gunnar

[MattyBoy]

Hi Soderbaum,

I do not think that Nightingale died of wounds.
I believe he was a member of Yozgad POW camp after his capture.

Mentioned in the book 'The Road To En-Dor' by E. H. Jones.
This from memory (as I no longer have the book )
Bye.

WOW! You guys amaze me! Thanks very much!

This is one of those little pieces of missing information that has been niggling at me for years. I like all the jigsaw puzzle pieces fitting.

Bavarian Flakzug 136 had two 37mm Maschinen-Fliegerabwehr-Kanonen-auf-Sockel, with 2 officers and a total strength varying between 15 and 21 men. (Somebody was always sick on these fronts).

Of those 21, I have the names of 4, thanks to 1919-1938 run of the Bund der Asienkämpfer magazines--

Commander Lt dR Bader (alive 1930), assistant Lt dR Wagner, my fellow: later Reichsbahn locomative driver Otto Göschel (alive 1939) of Pressig, and an Otto Schliemann living in Breslau in 1929.

Flakzug 136 had served as direct fire ground artillery in the Trans-Suez Expedition of July-August 1916, then was assigned as AA for the Turkish 22nd Army Corps covering the entire sector (2 guns!) between Jaffa and Jerusalem.

This was their ONLY confirmed shoot-down that I can find recorded-- mainly they were actually used against British and Arab cavalry.

Kudos, and my hat's off to you gentlemen! Rick

[Soderbaum]

Thanks very much Rick for the interesting information...

Flakzug 136 is often a neglected air unit in the fighting on the Palestinian front...
..despite that they had the only "true" Ace* on this front, Lt dR x Bader who had 5 confirmed victories according to Kogenluft material...

The fact that they only had two "small" 3,7 cm canons is also interesting/odd as these kind of units normally had at least one 7,7 cm canon...However the 3,7 cm cannon was highly effective on low levels, like ground attacks and attacks on balloons etc...

*if we follow the "French rules", otherwise you have Lt Walter von Bülow and Gerhard Felmy from FA 300 who each scored four victories in Palestina..

I would be extremely glad for receiving the first name of Bader...!


Gunnar

FIVE downed aircraft??? Do you have the dates? Göschel went sick 14 May 1917 and spent the next five months in hospitals in Palestine and Turkey before being sent home.

I have from a 1930 BdAK article that Bader was himself sent home sick in September 1918-- JUST missing the catastrophic collapse of the Palestine-Transjordan front.

I don't find him for a first name, either.

[patrickmallahan]

Graeme and all,

Whether it was Ben-my-Chree or Empress is somewhat an open question and though most sources give the former (especially Ian Burns' history of B-m-C, C&C(GB) vol. 7, No. 1), Graeme may be able to cite a more reliable reference suporting his position. Cronin, pp. 233-4 is clear that it was B-m-C but does contradict himself on p. 316 where he shows Empress as 8372's last roosting place before being lost. I welcome a correction, but for the moment, I stand by my earlier post.

The Times, 15.1.19 records both Nightingale and Woodland as having been repatriated and several books do show them in camp as POWs. I think it certain that both survived the war.

Patrick

[Soderbaum]

Hi Rick

I dont have the complete list of the claims from Bader which officially were confirmed as victories...
However, it seems that he had "fun beating up Aussies"...

On 20 Apr 17 he did shot down an Aussie, and the next day he followed up this with sending another down...however the German reports about this incidents are "confusing" as it could be interpret as it happened the same Day (double victory?)....?
As this happened during the time Göschel was serving within the unit, he ought to mentioned these successes..or...!?...or was the fact that the unit was "spread up" a reason that he did not mentioned it..?

I dont knew exactly when Flakzug 136 arrived to Palestina, but there is a "chance" that Bader was involved with the incident on 18 Jun 16 when three British a/c were shot down...??...anyone knews..?


Gunnar