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Old 30 July 2005, 06:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Erich Loewenhardt and Jasta 10 aircraft

Hello,
I am brand nbew to this forum, having only found it last week. I love this site!!!

I have read some of the interesting discussions, both past and present, particularly interesting were the discussions on W. Voss' Dr1 coloring, and the recent discussion about E. Udet's DVII.

I am thoroughly impressed with the info I have seen presented here, so I would like to ask a question, and would like to beg pardon in advance if it may have already been discussed here...

With regard to Jasta 10 and the Dr1, I understand that Jasta 10 did not officially receive the triplanes, but I am curious about the photograph in several publications that show Erich Loewenhardt in front of what they label "his" triplane.

As far as i know he spent most of his fighter combat career with Jasta 10, so did he have a Dr1 personally after his promotion to commander of Jasta 10?

Was he posed in front of someone else's Dr1?

Or is the photograph of someone else, not Loewenhardt?

I am curious because I modeled a Dr1 for Erich Loewenhardt with a Yellow cowling and tail, and white snake-like device on the fuselage, based on the photograph purported to be Jasta 10 in the Squadron Signal book. (A model I still intend to keep, regardless of accuracy!)

Now, I realize that that has been refuted in this forum, but I am still curious about that Loewenhardt Dr1 photograph...

Thanks for any light that you can shed on this...
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Old 30 July 2005, 06:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Moved this to the People forum as I believe you will get a better answer here.
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Old 30 July 2005, 07:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Smile Clarasdad

Thanks! I wondered about where to post my question... I appreciate the help!
Jim
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Old 30 July 2005, 08:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes, it's Loewenhardt

Hi Clarasdad,

First of all, welcome to the forum!

The photo to which you refer does indeed show Loewenhardt. It was issued as part of the famous Sanke postcard series of portraits of famous aces, No. 814.

Loewenhardt and his aircraft have always been something of a mystery. Ironically for the 3rd highest scoring German ace, there are very few photos of his aircraft indeed. Personally, I choose to believe Heinz Nowarra's statement that the OAW-built Albatros D.III marked with the white snake line on fuselage and top wing was Loewenhardt's. Nowarra interviewed at least two Jasta 10 mechanics, and one of them apparently identified that Albatros as such.

Sadly, though there are plenty of verbal accounts mentioning Loewenhardt's "bright yellow" Fokker D.VII, no photo showing these markings has yet surfaced. Most likely, his D.VIIs bore yellow fuselage, struts, wheel covers and horizontal tail surfaces - but the wings probably remained in standard lozenge camouflage. I'd give a lot to see a photo of one of his Pfalz D.IIIs, too.

As for that mystifying triplane: the problem is, Jasta 10 was the only Jasta in JG I that was never fully equipped with the Dr.I. The poor Jasta 10 pilots had to persevere with their outdated Albatros D.V/Va and Pfalz D.III/IIIa types. Consequently this was the first Jasta in JG I to receive the Fokker D.VII in late April/May '18. However, it seems some Jasta 10 pilots may have occasionally borrowed a triplane from one of the other units in JG I, perhaps for special missions. For instance, on 24 March 1918, Ltn. Keseling of Jasta 10 was brought down and captured in a Jasta 11 Fokker Dr.I, 147/17. It's possible that Loewenhardt, as Jasta commander and the top gun in Jasta 10 at the time, may have rated a personal Dr.I, but there's no documentary proof of that. There's an intriguing photo in Ed Ferko's book "Richthofen", from Albatros productions, which shows a Fokker Dr.I on the same field as a couple of Jasta 10 Pfalz D.IIIa machines. Ed felt that this might have been a Jasta 10 Dr.I, perhaps even the Dr.I photographed with Loewenhardt, but there's no proof of that. It's a rear three-quarter view that appears to show factory finish only, though Ed said that the top decking of the fuselage seemed to have been painted a dark color.

So I'm sorry, but IMHO there's no easy answer to your question. Loewenhardt simply may have been posing in front of a convenient backdrop of an anonymous Dr.I, or it might have been "his" aircraft.I think your model sounds like a reasonable theoretical depiction, and sounds cool besides!!

Very best regards,

Greg VanWyngarden
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Old 31 July 2005, 08:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Thanks Gregvan!!!

Thank you for the info.

I agree that there seem to be pitifully few pics of Loewenhardt and his aircraft.

The picture of EL in front of the triplane does show a lighter shaded cowling that very well could have been yellow, and I see no reason to believe that he could not have led the squadron with an individual DRI, but, of course, can't verify that with any facts at all.

I am curious about his Pfalz DIII's as well... I have done a set of A/C for EL, including the Albatros with the white sanke device, the DrI in similar markings, and a DVII in all yellow, as debatable as that may be. I also plan to do a DVII in the scheme you mentioned of yellow nose, fuselage and tail, struts and undercarriage, with the lozenge pattern wings, and would like to do a Pfalz DIII. (DID I mention I like E. Loewenhardt?)

Anyway, do you know of any descriptions of his DIII? Would it have been the silver doped with yellow nose and tail, and with, perhaps, the white snake, or maybe even a yellow snake, on the silver fuselage and upper wing?

I will likely do it one of those ways, unless I can find evidence to contradict it.

I have also done a set of MvR's A/C... the Albatros DIII and DV, and a pair of DrI's in the different paint schemes... i'll probably do a DII for him as well, but that would be less distinctively marked...

If I get a chacne to take some pics of them, and can figure out how to post them here, maybe I'll try and do so, although I may open myself up to criticism of factuality...

Anyway, thanks again for the info!!!

Warm regards,
Jim Nordheim
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Old 31 July 2005, 01:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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There is a report of Eric Loewenhardt flying a EV.146 from Jasta 6 (Alex Imrie: Fokker Fighters of World War One) and a Roden box cover art for this plane that even claims it was his plane and implies he died in it. So apparently he took it for a spin at least. I'm sure he was flying his Jasta 10 plane, whatever that was -probably a D.VII- when he was killed.
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Old 31 July 2005, 02:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hi,

Yes, Loewenhardt took up a Jasta 6 Fokker E.V for a brief test hop at Puisieux-Ferme near Chambry and was famously photographed doing it. However, this was not 'his' aircraft and it did not bear 'his' markings. He was only flying it for a little tryout.

There is NO doubt that Loewenhardt died while flying a Fokker D.VII, and eyewitness accounts describe his 'bright yellow' machine. Unfortunately they don't go into any more detail than that; most likely the wings remained in factory finish - but who knows?

Clarasdad, I certainly wish I knew what Loewenhardt's Pfalz D.III or D.IIIa aircraft looked like; there is little doubt that he flew the Pfalz, probably more than one. However, I know of no photo which identifies any of his Pfalz. All we can say is they almost certainly bore the Jasta markings of a yellow nose, struts and wheel covers along with the typical silver-gray finish. A yellow tail is possible, but this area was often used for a pilot's personal markings and a variety of different colored tails are in evidence in photos of Jasta 10 Pfalz.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Greg VanWyngarden
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Old 31 July 2005, 02:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Smile Loewenhardt's DVII

Thanks for the references! I will try to obtain copies of them...

Yes, for sure Erich Loewenhardt was flying a late Fokker-built DVII(f), and after getting his 54th victory on August 10th, he collided with another DVII flown by Alfred Wentz of Jasta 11. Both men took to their parachutes, and Wentz came down safe, but Loewenhardt's parachute failed to open, and he fell to his death.

The combat report from Lothar von Richtofen, who was flying with them that day (and many other days), states that EL's DVII was yellow. This was probably the entire fuselage, nose to tail, struts and wheels, but probably with lozenge pattern on the wings, as described, I believe, by ground crewmen of Jasta 10.

However, I believe there are some that state that EL flew a bright yellow Fokker, implying an all-yellow DVII, but that seems questionable, at best, although it would be possible, considering the precedent of MvR's all-red DrI, with whom EL had flown with in JG1.

It is most likely all conjecture, anyway. My main question was about a photo that shows EL in front of, ostensibly, his own DrI triplane, although Jasta 10 did not officially receive them.

I do know that Jasta 10 flew Albatros DV and DVa, and Pfalz DIII and DIIIa A/C right up until they got the excellent Fokker DVII's. And EL got many of his 54 victories after starting to fly the DVII.

I was also curious if anyone knew any details on the paint schemes his Pfalz DIII may have carried, although there is a sad lack of photographs of EL and his airplanes, including his DVIIs.

Thanks again for the input...

Jim Nordheim
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Old 31 July 2005, 05:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Smile Thanks Gregvan!!!

I thought there might not be much available on the Pfalz DIII's flown by EL.

On the positive side, I can feel free to use limited artistic license, except for the nose, struts and wheel covers... which i like, since yellow is a favorite color of mine, along with red... hence, an added interest in Erich Loewenhardt and Manfred von Richtofen and their aircraft, aside from the obvious historical fact that they were some of the cream of the crop, German aces three and one, respectively...

Anyway, thanks again for the advice!!!

I certainly appreciate the input!!!

Jim Nordheim
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Old 31 July 2005, 06:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Clarasdad- Steve Anderson did a wonderful watercolor of Lowenhardt's test flight in a Jasta 6 E.V and has done three or four pantings of Lowenhardt's Albatros and Fokker D.VIIs. He works with a real Lowenhardt enthusiast and if it is not you, you might want to contact Steve through his web site here on the Forum. No photos except the Albatros, but enough repetition and we might all believe the colors chosen. Plus having a Steve Anderson original on your wall is a good thing.

We need an Umlaut on the Forum to get the names right, agreed? Might be worth having Scott look into it.

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Last edited by Taz; 1 August 2005 at 05:12 AM.
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