Georges Guynemer meets his maker

[retread]

Besides the obvious more recent goings on September 11th was also the anniversary of Georges Guynemer meeting his maker, apparently at the hands of one Lt. Kurt Wissemann of Jasta 3. A couple of questions regarding this. 1) What sort of aircraft was Wisseman flying at the time?I assume an Albatross D.III as eight of these were reported to be in the vicinity at the time but I am not sure. Any detail regarding Wisseman's particular aircraft? 2) How many were flying with Guynemer? I am aware of three others from Spa 3. Two high, two low. Also what were the nature of Guynemer's wounds? I know a German Doctor did a quick examination of the body, is anyone aware of a written report of this and if so does it still exsist?
Thanks

Don't know about the credibility of the report but I seem to remember reading that Guynemer was the victim of a head shot. The wreckage came under immediate heavy shelling and the body was never recovered. Not sure if an official report does or ever did exist.

[retread]

Count,
I know there is some controversy or at least a lack of clarity regarding Guynemer's death and immediately following. I believe I had read somewhere that he was shot through the head and had one other lesser gunshot wound. What impresses me as the most authorative (as in well researched) account of his death ( that I have read) is in "Storks" by Norman Franks. Here it is accounted that not only was Guynemer's body recovered and I.D.ed but that the Germans buried him with full military honors. Al-though shortly after this his grave was obilterated by artillery fire.
It was also mentioned that two infantry regiments were involved, one in the recovery and one in the burial although I cannot remember exactly which and do not have the reference available right now. I assume that if a doctor did examine Guynemer's body as stated he may have been attached to one of these two regiments, although I know nothing of the medical organzation of the Imperial army.
The book also contains a picture of Guynemer's pilot certificate which it accounts was returned to France by Germany in 1938. So clearly the German's had found and identified him.

[Barrett]

I recall seeing a summary of US newspaper articles in the 20th century which included the wartime report that the Germans had buried GG with honors. Wish I'd kept that item, along with a ton of other stuff!

[Rick]

Wasn't there an article in a recent (last three or so years) OTF entitled something like "Where is Guynemer Buried?" ?? R.

[gilles]

The informations about Guynemer's death were given by the German embassy in Paris in 1938 :
-location of combat : 2km north of Grafenstafel (??) at 9.50 am
-location of wreckage :700m north-west of military cemetery II near Poelkapelle
-soldiers of regiment #413 trying unsuccessfully to go to the plane and then burial with full military honors by #204 regiment
-and a list of papers belonging to Guynemer.

So from a diplomatic point of view, no problem.

The contoversy is that Guynemer's death was announced by a newspaper the 28th september, 2weeks after, and that same day Kurt Wisseman was KIA. To my knowledge, there are no other infos about Guynemer's burial : no pictures, no witnesses, It just look like nobody knew that Wisseman shot down Guynemer.

On the french side , I have only heard of his wingman that day, Jean Bozon-Verduraz, who spotted 8 single seaters while Guynemer was following a spiralling "rumpler"(?) 2 seater.

Think of MvR : the number of witnesses (maybe too much), the number of datas (never enough to be certain, it seems), the number of photos of the burial, newspapers,etc... On Guynemer : nothing, except that someone took his IDs

gilles

[rammjaeger]

Lothair Vanoverbeke "Is Guynemer buried in Rumbeke?" - in OTF vol.15, #1 in 2000.

I wonder how often this article is ignored in discussions about Guynemer here.

[Rick]

Thanks Hannes, that's the one . Well five years ago, I was close. R.

[retread]

rammjaeger,
I was not aware of the article but will certainly try to get a copy of the mentioned OTF.
gilles,
From the book "Storks" I mentioned previously. Wissemann wrote his parents on what I assume was the 15th (September)speaking of his 5th kill although unaware it was Guynemer.I am not entirely sure about the date as in the book it is given as having been written on the 5th, although this must certainly be a typo. On a later date (not sure which date as again I am caught without a reference but I believe it was the 21st or 25th) he wrote to say the pilot of the downed plane was Guynemer.
Also from "Storks" it is stated that Guynemer was flying with three others. As you mentioned his wingman Bozon-Verduraz and two others from Spa 3, although only one of which is named. I will I.D. this pilot here asap if someone else doesn't do so first.
Finally for the sake of accuracy I will correct my last post . I was mistaken about the document reporduced in the book. It is not Guynemer's pilot certificate but his military I.D.

[rammjaeger]

retread,

he wrote to his parents on 15 September about his victory # 5 and he reported on 25 September it was found to be Guynemer.

BTW on his last mission on 28 September Wissemann was flying together with Carl Menckhoff when both men met the aces of 56 squadron.

Hi Rick, I was also wondering how fast 5 years can pass.