Georges Guynemer

[retread]

One for the record only. During March 11th, 1916, N3 recieves orders to transfer from the role of supporting the French 6th army to the vicinity of Verdun where the French are trying to wrestle air superiority from German aviation.The following day the squadron completes the movement. Shortly thereafter Guynemer is wounded and rendered O.O.C. until July. This is where it gets a little sticky as I have read in four different sources three dates of Guynemer's wounding (two rounds through the left arm). The 13th, the 15th and the 19th.
As best I can tell the 13th is the correct date for the following reasons. In Jaucques Mortaine's book "Guynemer- The Ace of Aces" he leaves no doubt that the day was the 13th of March. In the French launguage version of Henri Bourdeaux's book "Guynemer- Knight of the Air" he again lists the date as the 13th. Also both books list the day of Guynemer's evacuation to a Paris hospital as the 14th of March.
The problem begins with the English version of Bourdeaux's book which lists the date of Guynemer's wounding as the 15th despite the fact that it has the date of Guynemer's evacution to Paris as the 14th.Mortaine's book and both
French and English versions of Bourdeaux's book were printed 1918. The script in the French version of Bourdeaux's book is in an antiquated style and the second digit of 13 could be easily mistaken for 5. I could only tell the difference with a magnifying glass.It is fairly obviously merely a printing error.
A much later source places Guynemer's wounding as taking place on the 19th of March.
Both Mortaine and Bourdeaux knew Guynemer and wrote their biographies with reference to his flight log. In Bourdeaux's case he also had acsess to Guynemer's correspondence.
If any member of the forum has a different opinion or better information regarding the date of Guynemer's wounding I would be extremely interested to hear.

Somewhat related is the writing of Oswald Boelcke on this same day. He described spotting a French single-seater attacking a German observation aircraft above Fort Duoamont. Boelcke describes driving the Frenchman away and across the lines. This seems to me to correspond in some ways to Guynemer's discription of the incident. After his wounding in an attack on a German aircraft he dives and is pursued by another. Although he does not give type of aircraft or exact location. I ask the opinion of the forums exalted ones whether they feel the two discriptions are related.
Thanks

[retread]

I was spreading misinformation in my last post when I stated Guynemer was O.O.C. until July, 1916 because of his wound suffered in March. He returned to N.3 May 18th (as per Bordeaux) and was not credited with another kill until June 22nd (again Bordeaux) or June 28th (according to Jacques Mortaine). This kill was his ninth and seems to have been shared with Chainat. Sorry for the screwup.

[gilles]

Hello

In all my books , the date for Guynemer's woundings is the 13th, even in Jacques Mortane book ("Carré d'As: Guynemer-Nungesser-Madon-Dorme").
Icare magazine #43 and #122 (basically a reprint) has published a photo of the hospital file and the date of admission is spelled in letters "quatorze mars 1916" = march the fourteenth

Guynemer's 9th victory was on june 22nd

About Boelcke, are you sure he was in the Verdun area at that time?
It seems he had a victory the 13th but in the Aisne area.

gilles

[Soderbaum]

Hi

Boelcke had been in the Verdun area since around 20 Jan 16. His victory on 13 Mar 16 was reported to have fell E Malancourt within French lines. It also reported that it was destroyed by German Artillery, which indicates that it landed fairly intact*..time 13:++

The e/a is usually descriped as an Voisin...

I bet that there where over 20 other German fighter a/c in the Verdun area around Mar 16....this mean serveral possible opponents..

I have that Sgt Guynemer came down near Brocourt flying a Nieup 11 836, I dont knew what happened to this a/c...

*in situation like this the French crew could have been ok...

Gunnar

[retread]

gilles - Thanks for the reply on the date of Guynemer's wounding. It seemed as if the 13th was the most likely. Also confirming the 22nd of June as the date of his ninth kill, which was much less apparent with the sources I have at hand.
Souderbaum- the incident I refered to regarding Boelcke actually took place before his Voisin kill. In his "Fieldnotes" he discribes spotting a French single seater attacking a German observation aircraft. Boelcke then states he drove the French fighter back over the lines but is no more specific than that.
Guynemer in his turn described as having attacked two German aircraft head on and driving one off, he then attacked the second and got wounded for his trouble. While diving away he is prusued by a third aircraft at which point he makes for his own lines without burning any time.
I thought it was possible this third German a/c MAY have been Boelcke and only mentioned it as I found it interesting that the two great aces of the early war might have crossed paths in this fashion.

[gilles]

Thanks Gunnar for the Boelcke infos. Actually I was looking for his claims in march 1916 but instead of correct locations of Malancourt, Mare, Cuisy; I found Malincourt, Marre and Cuissy. Confusingly all this places are between Rheims and the Aisne area.

About the Guynemer-Udet meeting there is almost nothing in french books.
Guynemer didn't say a word about this and frankly I doubt he would have spared an enemy's life if a had a chance to shoot him down. Maybe his guns were jammed too?

The only french ref I have about this is in a booklet published in 1985 and states :" Aboard his first Nieuport 17 N1386, Guynemer spares Udet life during a duel above Lierval, june 6th 1916". That's very precise but unfortunately the author does not say where his infos come from.(Lierval is north of Chemin des dames). And Udet saw a SPAD.

In "Les as nous parlent" ("aces speak to us") by Jacques Mortane published in 1936, there are 3 chapters about german aces : Goering, Udet and Loerzer. According to Mortane, this is based on interviews and Udet story is quite different !
No "Vieux Charles" but a SPAD with a blue striped tail and bright colors on the fuselage sides, #4 on the rudder. The meeting was during the Aisne battle (april 1917?) near chemin des dames. Is this another event in Udet book ? (I don't have it) Or another version of the Guynemer story (but without Guynemer ) ?

gilles

[retread]

gilles,
I tend to agree that if the Udet-Guynemer confrontation did take place as recorded, what likely saved Udet was either a weapons failure or Guynemer having used up his ammunition. Guynemer spared little sentiment for battle.
Still, this is based on what I THINK I KNOW about Guynemer's character, not what I know about it. Another one of histories little jokes.

A question I have forgotten to post several times. Both Mortaine and Bordeaux had available Guynemer's flight log and in the case of Bordeaux letters to his family as well . Does anyone know if some or all of this still exsists?

[retread]

Earlier on in this thread Honza asked if Guynemer ever had the single word "Vieux" painted on his aircraft. Turns out he did. His Spad VII S254 at some point in its service did carry on the pilots left hand side above the exhaust pipe and directly beneath the cockpit the single word "Vieux". There are at least two photographs showing this. One pictures Guynemer in the cockpit. In other photos of this particular aircraft it is bearing the slogan "Vieux Charles" on the pilots right hand side, below the exhaust pipe and aft of the cockpit. Still other photos show this same a/c without the "Vieux" on the pilots left.
Also, as far as I can make out this was probably the aircraft Guynemer was flying during the period of Udet's reported encounter with the Frenchman.
Spad S254 seems to have been Guynemer's standard mount in the field between January, 1917 until some point in July of that year.
Coincidence? We can draw our own conclusions although this certainly seems to support Udet's story.

Thanks retread for clearing up. Now there really should be no douts.
Honza.

[Taz]

For all you Guynemer enthusiasts, Bernard Klaeyle's and Philippe Osche's book Guynemer Les Avions D'Un As is a must have. The book is in French, but all the photo captions are in French and English. There are so many images I had not seen before I was amazed. Pick up a copy if you can. You will not regret it. Bernard is also working on a book on Nieuports which should be a show stopper. Upon sending him a photo image, I received back the comment "It is a Nieuport 17, but rigged like a 23." Really knows his stuff and has a huge photo collection.

Taz
Terry Phillips