New "accepted" scores of Mannock, Bishop

[Billy9]

If you think the British were not victory conscious just go to the PRO and read through the material on No. 46 Squadron.

Bill

[Stephan]

Right Graeme, will seek it out. Yes Mannock was a great ace & great leader.

Politely disagree about numbers & irrelevance.

Fonck & perhaps Bishop were great aces, not so much great leaders. Funny how WW1 aviators have more emphasis on leadership, & WW2 aviators mostly are talked about in terms of great pilotness & individual accomplishement.

[Laspalmas]

I think they increased Mannock's score 1 above Bishop's because they didn't like the fact that their little "colony", Canada, had an ace above the great British empire's. (Sincerely no offence to any brits here, that was just the mentality of the times, I believe)

Cheers

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Graeme;
I believe that Major Edward Mannock was probably the greatest combat üleader on the Allied side, he instructed by demonstration and encouraged his pilots in his Flight at No.74 Squadron and shared his victories with them. I have never considered Major Billy Bishop, a leader, his only purpose was to run his personal "score" up, and did it solo in most cases. I have never read anything about about Major James McCudden being a leader, he like Bishop were soloists, the difference was McCudden brought home the proof.
Graeme, About 25 years ago I also did a study on Mannock's victories, when all was said and done, I also came up with 68 victories. Interesting!
In my mind, MvR was not a good leader! I know ththat statement will evoke an argument. However, consider this, MvR did not develope pilots and/or aces. When a pilot had acquired a reputation of an ace, MvR went and got him and brought on board Jage.Nr.1. When they joined Jage.Nr.1, they stayed until which ever end came first, death or the end of the war, or he failed to gain victories.
Good leaders, were Jastaführers who taught and developed pilots into aggressive pilots who through leadership of the Jastaführer were given the skill and courage to be an ace. Boelcke was such a leader. Track what became of the original pilots of Jasta Nr.2(Boelcke) those who survived became Jastaführen and two became Kommanduer, Richthofen and Schleich.
Schleich was a leader, he developed pilots gave them the skills and courage, to become leaders. Many of Schleich's pilots became Jasta leaders, Emil Thuy, Rudolf Matthaei, Paul Turck, that came out of Jasta 21s, out of Jasta 32b, came Arno Benzler and Emil Koch.
MvR had a different mission, to start fires (Offense) or to put them out (defense) with Jage. Nr.1!
It would be interesting to see a Pert chart that started with Boelcke and see where it went??
Blue skies,
Dan-San
P.S. Wing Commander Robert Stanford Tuck was such a leader, read what he did with No.257 Squadron,a sorry lot of losers during the Battle Of Britain.

[Stephan]

MVR was a great leader simply because he took the last placed squadron & in short order, it became the highest scoring squadron. Hadn't scored a single victory til he cam along, then under his tuelage, they shot to number 1.

Any of the pilots under him will tell you he was a very patient teacher, always had time for any questions no matter how simple.

Hello Dan-San,
It would be interesting point of view if it was just true. What about Emil Schäfer?, Karl Allmenröder or Kurt Wolff? Hadn't they become great aces under MvR?
Honza

[Graeme]

Dan-San

Mannock acknowledged a discrepancy of four in one of his letters to Jim Eyles where he mentions his tally in early June 1918 as being "51, with 47 official". I might try and reconstruct the 68 at some time, just to see what I included (or left out).

McCudden did his fair share of work as a patrol leader but I don't feel this suit his style and the bulk of his victories were achieved after "stalking" his prey when flying solo.

Stephan

I'm pretty certain the uplifting of Mannock's score did not take place until some time after the war, ie later than 1919, so look forward to what you can dig up - and I dont mind being proved wrong (well, not too often ); the purpose of the forum is, after all, to provide a basis for discussions such as this.

I think the change in emphasis from "team" to "individual" was symptomatic of the changes taking place throughout the Empire and had much to do with the course of the early part of the Second World War. After the military reversal of Dunkirk, the country needed heroes so as to bolster home morale - too much bad news, gloom, doom and despondency might well have led to demands for the Government to sue for peace, regardless of the terms.

Wonder what we would now be talking about if that scenario had been played out?

Graeme

[Stephan]

Correct Honza,Several others to boot. Lothar?

As for leaders in WW2 I suppose Galland is one of the personalities that the title Great leader is mentioned. But most on German side most were talked about in terms of individual accomplishements, Hartmann, Priller, Marseille, etc.

On British side Bader, Tuck, & Johnnie Johnson were similiarly spoken of.

Sailor Malan has taken a powder lately regarding his leadership. In a friendly fire incident he apparrently lied about what he said over radio to cover his ass. This from an interview with the pilot who accidently shot down a hurri on malan's order.

I suppose Bader was also talked about as leader & tactician.

Tuck was best of the lot me thinks.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Honza:
In MvR we have two different leaders, 1. as a Jastaführer, and 2 as a Kommandeur of Jage.Nr.1. When he commanded Jasta 11, he taught his pilots how to fight. Under the previous leader, Lang, Jasta 11 was scoreless and Lang failed in his leadership, that is why he was replaced. MvR taught his pilots combat tactics, and instilled in them the will to and courage fight. He led by example demonstrating he had managed his inner fears by being confident in his abilities to fight and win. When they got that message they took off like a scalded ape. From Jasta 11, Ltn Emil Schäfer was transferred to Jasta 28w as the Jastaführer, Ltn. Kurt Wolff to Jasta 29 as their Führer, and returned to Jasta 11 replacing MvR when he went to Jage.Nr.1. Oblt wilhelm Reinhard replaced Wolff.
After MvR become the Kommandeur of Jage Nr.1, the flow of personnel was more inward than outward. There were some Oblt. von Boddien to Jasta 59 as Jastaführer. Some went out to Armee Flugparken and were later assigned as a Jastaführer. Most of the personnel that were transferred out of Jage.Nr.1 had not cut the mustard.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Laspalmas

I think they increased Mannock's score 1 above Bishop's because they didn't like the fact that their little "colony", Canada, had an ace above the great British empire's. (Sincerely no offence to any brits here, that was just the mentality of the times, I believe)
Cheers

Wasn't it the son of an Irish sergeant-major's little Welsh mate who caried out the score enhancement ? General Staff's readiness to confirm Bishop's claims suggests that that analysis is doubtful.