New "accepted" scores of Mannock, Bishop

[Stephan]

Been awhile since I've delved into this topic, but a friend asked me about allied scores & I mentioned I had read Mannock's score was changed to 61 & Bishop 55 or so.

Wanted to brush up on this as most lists on the internet "still" show 73 for Mannock & 72 for Bishop.

Read long time ago something about Bishop commenting that Mannock's logbook showed 55 at the time of his death & that the score of 73 was invented to put him one up on Bishop.

That could well be just rumor. Anyway, look forwrd to data on this.

[Ginger.]

Problem with Billy Boy was that he was a bloody liar. Don't think Mannock gave a hoot about his personal score so long as somebody in his Flight got credit for a flamerino.

[Soderbaum]

Hi

I seldom agree with what Ginger says, but in in this case your "suggestion" to compare him with William "Bluffery" Bishop is very unfair....!

Mannock was a very good pilot, but to compare him wirh for example with McCudden is also unfair...they were playing with in different "leagues"...

I dont like like your description of this thread, Stephan can you name any serious person who think this scores are real..?

You probably knew that the British did not have any official victory system during the War....so why in the h-ll do you started this thread..??


Gunnar

[VtwinVince]

There's been alot of brewhaha over Bishop and his claims here in Canada, where he is still regarded as something of a national hero. I don't think the stigma of the so-called VC sortie will ever go away.

Hi Stephan,
How said Gunnar you can't take numbers of scores so seriously. Many pilots have unconfirmed victories and on the other hand many pilots have some kills which maybe weren't just kills. For example MvR has I think has one unconfirmed and on the other hand he shot down (now I can't remember when it was and what was the type) an allied plane that no one saw crashed. Mannock's score is nearly everywhere set as 61. I perhaps only remember Red Baron 1 game where it was 73 . I've never seen Bishop's score else than 72.
But Stephan, I thing that this thread is correct and interestig.
Honza.

[Roadhog]

Dear Ginger I personally think that MvR landed his DR 1 intact to take a whiz. Sadly, Billy Bishop came along and saw the triplane sitting unattended and figured that if he parted the damn thing out he could claim 40 or 50 more victories. When the Red Baron returned from the other side of the barn and saw bishop making off with what was left of his ride, rather than face the fact that he had been punked by Bishop, he shot himself.

Strange, it all makes sense now...

Roadhog "Memento mori."

[Stephan]

Well, Soder, sorrry you don't like this thread. Like I said at intro, when you do a google on WW1 aces score, most sites still show 73 for Mannock & 72 for Bishop, so you're wrong about others not taking those scores seriously.

In fact RLT Bickers who has over 80 WW1 & 2 aviation books to his credit still takes the score of 73 for mannock as real. he flew in coastal command during WW2. Knows Stanford Tuck & Knew Galland very well.

Arthur Bishop comes up with 58-60 for Billy. & 61 seems to be the now accepted score for Mannock. I was just brushing up.

[duckman]

Yes, but have you actually read any of Bickers books? The only I've seen (sporting Mannock with 73) was absolute tat - all the allied pilots were heroic and upstanding, the Germans villainous and sneaky. If thats how you like your history, fine, but I prefer something a little less jaundiced.

I've not seen any realiable source seriously question Bishops 72 (although most agree there are questions over individual claims, they just don't go into them). Mannocks 73 almost certainly is down to the biog written by his great friend "Taffy" Jones, whose fame depends more on his own skills as a fighter pilot (and his colourful character) than his reliability as an historian. Best estimate on Mannock is indeed 61 - Above the Trenches goes into detail of the claims, and claims to have identified the 12 mistakes/double-ups in Taffy's accounting, FWIW.

I have also contacted sites about this in the past - most notably the "Spartacus" series of Englsih History sites.

They didn't care.

[Ginger.]

"all the allied pilots were heroic and upstanding, the Germans villainous and sneaky."

Sounds like a man after my own heart!

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Stephen:
I find it amusing when someone disusses what they think the accredited scores should be, then has the arrogance to publish what "HE" has determined the accredited victories were. Believe me I am not defending Bishop. What counts and ONLY what counts is what the various government have accredited to that pilot and have publicly acknowledged their accomplishments with medals and awards. As long as those goverments publish their accepted accounts, that is what is real, all the rest is hogwash.
Blue skies,
Dan-San