Rickenbacker's record

[DEM]

Elsewhere on the forum Tim West quotes an unnamed historian with the San Diego air museum as saying Rickenbacker was a fraud with only two or three legitimate kills to his credit.

We have all heard these rumblings about EVR in the past and I'm wondering what evidence there is FOR him as well as what the case is against him.

Specifically:

Do the Grub Street people list names of German pilots who match his victory claims? I seem to recall reading somewhere that he had about five matches, just for his aeroplane victories.

Do German records confirm balloon victories for EVR (or anyone else for that matter)?

HOW MANY OF EVR's victories were witnessed by other Allied pilots, regardless of what the German records say?

How piecemeal were German records during the last half of 1918? Are they too incomplete to be of any real use or are they fairly reliable?

Is there any evidence that some of the pilots who flew with EVR doubted his claims? Did anyone express these views, so far as we know?

[Lufbery]

DEM,

Anytime somebody brings up an ace's "real" score, emotions get pretty heated around here.

On the other hand, you ask some pretty intelligent questions for which the answers could prove interesting.

Generally speaking, the consensus I've read here is that EVR could claim six or so incontrovertible kills -- but I'm not sure which ones.

I also vaguely recall that shared victories can make the accounting difficult.

I hope that more people will contribute, and I hope the discussion can stay civil.

Regards,

I wonder if Lewis analysed Rickenbacker's victories in his latest book:

Amazon.com: Eddie Rickenbacker: An American Hero in the Twentieth Century (9780801882449): W. David Lewis: Books

Amazon.com: Eddie Rickenbacker: An American Hero in the Twentieth Century (9780801882449): W. David Lewis: Books

It has been described as the definitive biography on the man.

regards,

Darren

[Vin]

Originally Posted by DEM

Elsewhere on the forum Tim West quotes an unnamed historian with the San Diego air museum as saying Rickenbacker was a fraud with only two or three legitimate kills to his credit.

"Fraud" is a bit strong. Self promotor, perhaps ?

[Barrett]

I understand that Prof. Lewis does not examine EVR's combat veracity; evidently it's a more scholarly view of Rick's transportation career.

Saying that, read the combat reports and judge for yourself. As I've "occasionally" noted here, EVR seems to have destroyed 5-6 aeroplanes and three balloons in the air plus two grounded Drachen. The rest are OOCs, "dived east", and the absurd "Fokker last seen in vertical bank."

At least 5 Americans likely destroyed more e/a during TGW.

[Vin]

There's not much between fraud and self promotion. Lest that be seen to be a criticism of Rickenbacker, it must be qualified by a reference to the culture of the times. My reading of the period suggests that self effacement and modesty were far more highly prized then than now as a component of the culture that prevailed and prevails in Australia. If that's right, then I suspect that Richenbacher and Bishop would have been better known as braggarts than heros had they been raised on this side of the Pacific.

[DEM]

Can we start with German confirmations?

I don't have the Grub Street book about American and French aces but I think it has names of German losses that match some of the victory claims. Does anyone out there have this book? Does it include the names of five German pilots who match EVR's claims? And, if so, who were they?

Going by Barrett's information we have nine to eleven victories for Rickenbacker (if we accepted the two balloons on the ground). Maybe some of the German confirmations will be for some of his OOC claims.

[Balloon_Buster]

Professor W. David Lewis has written a superb, well- researched, readable and very enjoyable biography of Eddie Rickenbacker, America's Ace of Aces of the U.S. Air Service in World War One. He covers Rickenbacker's exciting, adventurous racing years in great detail. Eddie's struggle to fly and fight in spite of many obstacles is described in fascinating detail. Professor Lewis has brilliantly and accurately covered Eddie's air combat exploits, as well as those of the other pilots in his 94th Pursuit Squadron.
Dr.Walter V. Powell, Aviation Historian
Professor
Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania

If I read this review from Amazon right, Prof. Lewis does go into his aerial combats. I will definitely have to get this book.

There seems to be a tendency nowadays to want to debunk history for the sake of it. Not necessarily for improving accuracy. EVR has been my hero for over 40 years, and I still remember the day I met him.

Until somebody can disprove his victories, his score to me still stands at 26. And yes, I'm prejudiced.

[DEM]

I rather suspect EVR did win 26 fights but, like most Allied aces, did not actually destroy all his opponents.

What I'm hoping we can do here is launch an investigation among formuites to see how many we can confirm.

Does someone have German names from the Grub Street book? After that, we can move on to Allied witnesses.

Originally Posted by DEM

Does someone have German names from the Grub Street book?

I am sure someone can dig them up I will take a look at them later....

regards,

Darren