WWI German Pilots who Joined Nazi Party

[Romani]

Oddly enough, Bruno Loerzer, despite being Goering close friend it seems he didn't join the Nazi party. Or perhaps because of it. He didn't need to join the party to advance in his career.

I am quite certain of having read that Josef Veltjens was a Nazi party member, but it was nothing personal, only business. I read in a book that Veltjens was involved in the traffic of arms during the Spanish Civil War and other shady deals, it seems that at the same time Germany provided aid to the Nationalist side, they sold Great War surplus weapons and other scrap to the Reds for profit, and for further irony, the provider was catholic Poland!

So Veltjens seems to have been more of a unscrupulous "enterprising businessman" that would steal anything not bolted down rather than a hardcore Nazi, wich makes him more sympathetic to me. It's claimed that when he died in a airplane crash in 1943 when he was returning from Rome, that his real mission was stealing the gold reserves of Italy.

Personally, I would prefer not to know what these men did in later life or what they would have done. It would have been sadly likely that a man of such admirable patriotism and devotion to duty as Rudolf Berthold (or Franz Büchner) would have turned into an ugly Nazi fanatic. I think that MvR was fortunate on being killed and being spared to see the defeat of Germany in 1918 and the apocalypse of the II World War, and to not have his legend tainted by association with the III Reich.

This site is about their service in WWI. So let's keep the focus on it. Kurt Student and Wilhelm Bittrich would never attract any notice if it weren't by their relevant roles in WWII.

PS: The exception to judging men on their WWI service alone, is Hermann Göring. Since we want to believe that people are not evil, but become evil and things could have been different if those individuals had made different choices, or had better luck, in the name of impartiality some people and historians try to give Göring a fair treatment, along of the lines "he was a good pilot and brave man before he turned bad and became a nazi"

That's a mistake, aces, like any other human collective represent the best , the worst, and the average of human behaviour. Earning a medal doesn't necessarily mean that person is brave and virtuous, for most of the cases it only means the ace is good at his job, a proficient killer and lucky enough to have survived for long enough to achieve a good score.

In the case of Göring, biographical evidence suggest he was, if not rotten to the core, a disturbed individual with disturbing tendencies. And probably undeserving of the Pour le Mérite on a strict merit basis. Though certainly a pilot of some skill, he was mediocre at best, and certainly can't compare with the pilots that scored 20 victories and upwards.

Rittersbach,

My upcoming book on the 'Black Knight' will delve fairly deep into von Schleich's involvement within the NSDAP and Luftwaffe, and hopefully answer any questions you may have on the subject. It should be out by next year (keeping fingers crossed!).

I have to agree though with Romani that this site is probably not the best place to discuss the various political beliefs of WWI pilots, as they often stir emotions that can cause heated arguments amongst normally friendly members.

regards,

Darren

[Laspalmas]

Call me blind, guys, but I do not see the problem with searching for this info: the poster is looking for facts, not giving an opinion on nazis per say.

Add Wilhelm Speidel to the list, he flew a Fokker D-VI and later became a top general in Hitler's close entourage. He was head of the German army and Luftwaffe in Romania.

I hope I don't offend anybody, I just can't see how I would..

By the way, I am adding a 42nd 1:72 scale WW1 plane to my collection, most probably the last; a CL-III Hannover flown by Johann Baur, mentioned earlier in this thread, having become Hitler's personal pilot in WWII. The plane is all in losenges, it should take me a little while

I see what you mean Laspalmas, but there are better sites to ask these types of questions. Here's one of them:

http://forum.axishistory.com/

I know that the question raised by Rittersbach is harmless, but there are people who might use it as a means to degrade or de-fame certain pilots do to their political beliefs after the war. A lot of research needs to be done on an individual before a judgement can be rendered (in regards to the personal character of certain German pilots who eventually became members of the NSDAP).

regards,

Darren

[Ransom E. Olds]

This thread brings to mind an alternate reality I've had in the back of my mind for a number of years: that Ernst Udet had emigrated to Wichita to become a test pilot for Walter Beech, turning out caricatures and cartoons for the Kansas City Star in his spare time. Alas! Ransom

[Rittersbach]

To all who are offended by this thread. I contemplated posting this subject on this forum many times, because I am a builder of models, an admirer of pilots, and a fan of aviation history. I enjoy everything about WWI aviation and the brave and courageous pilots who defended their country. I have read books about Göring, Baur, and Udet and their lives. The question was merely a stab in the dark that someone here might have compiled a list of the German pilots of WWI who went on to fight in WWII and join the Nazi party. I realize this forum is about WWI. Yet I felt this a good place to ask the question because it concerned pilots of that era. I wasn't trying to open up a discussion concerning any one individuals morals or values. That should be left up to the reader. I have my opinions about people just like anyone else, but you'll notice I don't voice them here.

wingedwarrior-- My question wasn't about defaming or degrading anyone. Like I said before, that lies in the mind and opinion of the reader. If they choose to voice that opinion here it's on their conscious not mine. I merely asked a question, I wasn't asking for opinions.

Romani-- If you prefer not to know what these pilots did later in life, you shouldn't have read this post. Curiosity killed the cat.

I appreciate your responses.

with respect,

ritt

Hi Rittersbach,

First of all, I want to extend my humble apology to you if what I said insulted you in any way. I too have a great interest in all facets of the lives pertaining to WWI pilots, including their post-war experiences. I was not talking about you when I stated that some people will use this topic to degrade and de-fame a certain pilot over his connection with the NSDAP. Please forgive me if what I wrote read that way.

I truly believe that the forum I suggested in a previous posting is the best place to find the information you seek. The people who frequent it are more receptive to the topic at hand, and it certainly caters more to that period in history. Great minds lurk there, and can answer some of the most difficult questions regarding any and all topics about the Second World War.

One more note, just because a person was a member of the Luftwaffe (or any branch of the Wehrmacht for that matter), it doesn't automatically mean that they were a member of the Nazi party. To know for sure, you would have to find out what their membership number was. This goes for the dreaded SS as well, as not all of its members belonged to the party (as most historians would have you believe).

Once again, please accept my appologies.

regards,

Darren

Hi again Rittersbach,

Another good site for research:

http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/

Use the search function to find out if a certain pilot became a General-officer in the German military (many did). There is a good listing of assignments for a great number of soldiers on this site. Enjoy!

regards,

Darren

[Rittersbach]

wingedwarrior,
No apologies needed. I will look to the link you posted. I appreciate your candor and professionalism.

ritt

[NeilE]

Whether or not ex World War One pilots who held high office were members of the NSDAP is hardly the issue. The cold hard truth of the matter is those men both supported and benefited from the regime. Loerzer is a good example. During the 1930's he was President of the Reichs Air Sports Association. This was a Nazi sponsored organisation devoted to promulgate interest in aviation with the idea that it would provide personnel in the future for the Luftwaffe (which it certainly did) that replaced a non-Nazi run organisation devoted to gliding and aero-sport. Following that he took high office in the Luftwaffe and thus helped formulate the Luftwaffe's war plans throughout the war. Loerzer took advantage of his relationship to Goering and benefited from that. He was as much a part of the state structure as Goering, party membership or not.

Did Loerzer ever do anything to oppose the regime, a regime that was obviously based on violence and repression? Did any of these fine fellows? (Udet privately perhaps as an exception)

Attempting to appeal to notions of 'devotion to duty', 'patriotism', and the like are just rationalisations and revisions designed to obscure the responsibility that these officers clearly had. They were important parts of the Nazi state structure and bear some personal responsibility because of that. Many of them served short sentences after the war because of that. Those with higher responsibility were dealt with more harshly. These facts can't be obscured.

The post world War One history of these men can't be rewritten because we don't like some of the facts, nor should we ignore the reality of who they were and what they did.

The real people to be admired were those within the armed forces and ex-servicemen who opposed the regime and who paid for it with their lives, exile or hardship.

This is a site devoted to WW1 aviation and a part of that is the history of the pilots involved. To understand these men one needs to look at their history in all their contexts and not shy away from facts of their lives that we may find uncomfortable or distasteful. There have been many discussions here on the post war careers of WW1 fliers and not all of their careers were glorious or honourable. Its okay to discuss their post war careers here, I believe, if its done rationally.

I fully realise this will be a most unpopular post but facts are facts.

Regards

Neil

PS: Point of Clarification: Given that the SS was an arm of the NSDAP, you were automatically a member whether you actively joined the party at some stage or not.