Rene Fonck

[retread]

I said it before but will add my $.02 to this thread anyhow. The fact that Fonck was an obnoxious s.o.b. is apparent. What should be equally apparent but evidently is not, is that as a pure fighter pilot- a stick and rudder gunner, he had no equal in the "Great War".

[stephen]

I believe that Retread may well be right, but I'd sure like to see a victory by victory breakdown as detailed as has been done on MvR before making that statement categorically. I imagine most of his victories were legit but I've yet to see a real comparative study.

[Balloon_Buster]

I have really enjoyed all the different views here on an ace I really knew very little about. It has been interesting reading.

[Executioner128]

Dear BarkhornXX

I do not remember exactly where I read it. However I do remember vaguely that it was a comparitive study between the quality of German war industry and allied war industry. More often than not, the Germans beat the allies concerning the quality and manufacturing of machines. (I do know that this certainly does not apply to WW I flying, where both sides alternately dominated, and this isn't always true, but fact is: the Germans had brilliant scientists and designers, manufacturers) (Link towards today: top quality cars: BMW, Mercedes --> German). The Germans had better material in the trenches, their artillery was more effective, and so on and so forth, and somewhere digging a bit into WWI it was said that Manfred's succes was not that much due to his skills, but more due to the superiority of the German planes...

Like I said, don't fully agree on this one, although it may contain some veracity.

Have always been curious to know who would have won, a 1-on-1 fight between Richthofen and Fonck... I guess it would depend on the shape of the day

[gilles]

Originally Posted by stephen

His autobiography contains virtually no detail, is written poorly, and continually speaks of his own accomplishments in a light that, intentional or otherwise, appears boastful.

That's right, his book is quite frustating for aviation enthusiasts but it was written for the average citizen. Fonck (or his ghost-writer?) wrote it at a time he was candidate for the french parliament.
He was elected at the "chambre bleu-horizon"(most members were vets) in 1919 as Vosges region representative (Ace of aces, chapter 5 : "I retained, for the province where I was born, and where I chased the Boches for the first time, a deep love, a special fondness, but I no longer felt the sensation of loneliness that engulfed me when I first left it")
If you keep in mind that "Mes combats" (the original title : "My fights") has a strong (intentional) hagiographic bias, the book become more readable.

About his tactics, Fonck was more a hunter than a fighter. He had an extra-ordinary vision. He spotted his targets well before they could see him and that gave him a decisive advantage. He always managed to remain unseen so I am not surprised he was never hit by a single seater.
I am not sure he was a great pilot, he had landing accidents more than once.

Originally Posted by retread

The fact that Fonck was an obnoxious s.o.b. is apparent.

According to Willy Coppens, who was a friend of Fonck , he was the smartest ace he met (I wonder who were the dumbest ) and was very sober, almost shy.

gilles

[Barrett]

I'd buy a copy of Under the Guns of Rene' Fonck, but it'll never be written. The French records simply do not permit the level of scrutiny that the Brits and Germans do. Frequently the e/a type is not even cited, and experience has shown that time and place are often absent or approximate.

Grump.

[totoroman]

I've read his book--and was profoundly frustrated by it. he spends the whole time patting his back and talking about how great he is. possibly the biggest egomaniac of the war short of some of the 5 star generals and politicians.

the only battles where he gives a decent description are when he's talking about flying two-seaters... and that's probably just because he wanted to prove how awesome he was.

a profound lack of detail--wastes no time in belittling his adversaries (not classy, IMO, especially given that he's willing to chum up with Hermann Goering of all people!)

he was very, very good... and we'll never know just how good because the French simply did not care about keeping accurate or detailed records. I don't doubt that he has more than 75 victories, but I'm not convinced he had all 127 that he claims to have shot down.

maybe the reason he doesn't include many combat experiences is because his very technique for getting so many won't seem exciting to the average reader. good technique that doesn't put you at risk isn't so exciting!

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by Barrett

I'd buy a copy of Under the Guns of Rene' Fonck, but it'll never be written. The French records simply do not permit the level of scrutiny that the Brits and Germans do. Frequently the e/a type is not even cited, and experience has shown that time and place are often absent or approximate.

Grump.

Hi Barrett.

With respect, I think Fonck's claims list is more complete than you might think...If you have copies of the Grub Street books;

"Over the Front".

"Casualties Of The German Air Service 1914-1920".

The Jasta War Chronology.

The Jasta Pilots.

And to a lesser extent; "Above The Lines".

You could research his claims against German losses yourself. Obviously, I'm not saying it would be 100% accurate or totally comprehensive, but armed with these excellent books (and the others in the series),
enthusiasts/historians can now cross check nearly all air combat claims and losses of WW1. Amazing eh?

All the best.

Bucky.

PS. You'd need a good WW1 period map too!

[totoroman]

of course, if we're going to speculate... if the French had kept better records we could probably have an entire book about the "probable" victories attributed to either Rene Fonck OR Georges Guynemer... but it'll never be.

which is too bad, really.

[retread]

Georges Madon probably leads in the category of ambiguity, 41 confirmed with 64 probables. The sparcity of good information concerning the French Air Service in all its aspects, let alone its top shooters, is probably the most obvious oversight in the study of Great War aviation.