Shot down -October 5th, 1917 -Macedonia

[Claudius]

Hello;

I'm doing some research on a german pilot I have. The papers I have indicate that he was attributed with an air victory on Oct 5th, 1917. His air unit, FA(A) 246 was operating on Macedonia front (Serbia).

Does anyone have information from the Allies side of a casualty/plane loss on this date and on this front? I would like to learn the name(s) of the Allied pilot (and observer?), what type of plane did they fly, what unit they were with and what happened to them.

I also know, that this was an interesting air battle, in so far as the german observer, that accompanied the pilot, was killed. The pilot was able to escape back to base. Whether the death of the observer happened after his victory or before is unknown. I hope the Allies' notes on this engagement would shed more light on what happened. I know the Allies, especially the British, kept better records than the Germans on such matters.

Any help, or leads would be very helpful.

Thank you in advance,

-Claudius

[Graeme]

Claudius

The only casualty on 5 October 1917 was the crew of 2nd Lt George Cecil Gardiner and 2nd Lt A S Clark in an FK8 of No 47 Squadron RFC; the pilot (Gardiner) was wounded and the observer was unhurt. I have no record of a victory claimed by the RFC on that date.

Graeme

[rammjaeger]

Claudius,

the enemy could have been a French airplane too.

As well even the very comprehensive British files do not list every loss.

Also an erroneous report about this victory is possible.

The lesser known fronts are especially hard to research.

[Graeme]

My apologies. I should have made it clear I was talking about British losses/claims; there could easily have been a French loss/claim on that date.

As for the date being mis-reported, Henshaw's The Sky Their Battlefield shows a loss for the following day (6 October), this being Lt E R Wilkinson and 2nd Lt G S Bennett of No 47 Squadron. The pilot was wounded in action and died of his wounds on 7 October 1917.

Graeme

[Claudius]

Thank you Gentleman!

Perhaps Rammjaeger is correct. Maybe it is a French casualty. I have checked my documents again and the downed plane is reported as a single seater Nieport. While this is obviously a French make aircraft, in this theater or war I could see the Allies using whatever plane available. But I really don't know.

Nevertheless, does anyone have the French casualty rolls for this war theater?

Additionally, does anyone know of a book that gives a good overview of the Macedonia front?

Again, thank you for your help.

[Graeme]

Claudius

No 17 Squadron flew a miscellany of aircraft, originally BE12 single-seaters but later some Spads, Nieuports, Bristol Scouts and SE5as. The squadron's only loss in the month was a BE2e that fell to von Eschwege on 3 October. The remaining four losses were sustained by No 47 Squadron and apart from a BE12a lost on 29 October 1917, all were two-seaters.

At present, I have details of only one RFC claim in October 1917 - an Albatros two-seater shared by two pilots of No 47 Squadron on the first day of the month.

Graeme

[Claudius]

Thank you again Graeme;

I would appear that there is no colaborating information on the Allied side for this victory. The paperwork I have is fairly conclusive that pilot Grasmeher had a victory over a Nieport on October 5th, 1917. He earned a Ehrenbecker, or honor goblet for it. He must have had witnesses and maybe a ground confirmation as well. I know that even on the Western front some victories don't correspond to losses reported on the otherside, but personally, I had hoped there was something from the Allied side.

I appreciate your efforts, as well as others that have looked at my inquiry, but didn't have anything to add.

-Claudius

[Rick]

The only French loss this date (5Oct17) is on the Western Front per TFWC, although I am not sure that this book covers the Macedonian front. It could also have been a Serbian loss, which opens up even more difficult possibilities to track down. R.

[agblume]

Hello Claudius, Sorry that I am unable to help with the loss on 5 October 1917. I have no Serbian or French loss on that date. You may be interested in locating my five articles on the History of the Serbian Air Force, which appeared in Cross & Cockade US Vol.8/2, Vol.8/3, Vol.9/1, Vol.9/2,Vol.9/3 (1967-1968), reprinted in AVIONs Nos.9-14 (1993-1994). You may also be interested in "The History of the Balkan Peninsula," by Ferdinand Schevill, New York, Harcourt Brace, 1922. It is exceptionally good. A Google search on the Macedonia and/or Salonika and/or Albanian Front should turn up some others. Keep in mind that there were air units of the French, Serbs, Italians, British, Greeks, Germans, Bulgarians and Austro-Hungarians involved. Kind regards, agblume

Dear Claudius,
Check out Le Fana de l'Aviation No. 264 dated November 1991. Interview with Dieudonné Costes, with several photos & descriptions of fighting "sur le front d'Orient". If interested, I can email u the scanned article. I am researching Maurice Lashermes, his "équipier" during the fighting in Macedonia & I guess elsewhere ?

I have a personal interest, as Maurice's son Philippe, was a very good friend. He was a Huey pilot (US ARMY) who was shot down near Danang and died of his wounds on a hospital ship in 1970.
http://www.virtualwall.org/dl/LashermesPL01a.htm
Regards
cfv