Percentage of Verfiable Victories of Various Aces.

[Rob Romeor]

Originally Posted by Dan San Abbott

Why You don't have all the records. Without all the pertinent records or combat reports, you are whistling Dixie?
You would need to have the daily reports for every squadron/escadrille/Jasta whatever. I don't believe anyone has the ALL the records.
In regard to MvR, I have seen a lists where everyone of his victories has the pilot/crew names and RFC squadron number, aircraft type and serial number.

My response:


I’ve started what I think is a fun and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases more so than others), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventully (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the accuracy or even the sincerity of their submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and from documents/records it is possible to veryify that he shot down 40 with another 30 possible, etc.).

Great Work so far Guys –here’s what we got so far: Lets keep it goin!!!

WWI Aces
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
?? of 72 Claims Billy Bishop (Ooops did I jus open a can of worms?!?) ;-)
?? of 48 Claims Werner Voss

What about Voss guys –that should be easy for those of you who have Franks’ book.

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (~66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 352 Claims (~22.7%) Erich Hartmann –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims (62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims (75.0%) Gabby Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims (23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?

[bshatzer]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

BTW Immelmanns second was also Boelckes third victory - I wonder if the German authorities did not realize that or if they were not pleased about a potential or real argument between both pilots.

I'm afraid I don't understand - Above the Lines gives Immelmann's second as a "Biplane(Fr)" near Souchez on August 26, 1915 while Boelke's third is listed as "Morane two-seater" near "French front lines" on September 9, 1915.

SFAIK, all the Moranes in service in 1915 were monoplanes and while I suppose it's possible to misidentify a "Morane two-seater" as a "Biplane(Fr)" or vice versa, I don't see any possibility of mistaking August 26 for September 9.

What am I missing?

[rammjaeger]

You are missing the fact that the date for Immelmanns victory is wrong there. The dates of 2 or 3 letters in Immelmanns book "Meine Kampfflüge" are wrong/mixed but were used in ATL. Obviously the authors used this older source and did not see the difference in Franz Immelmann´s "Immelmann - der Adler von Lille". This book reports (correctly) the letter for 11. September and mentioned the fights and the downing of Nr.2 for the day before yesterday = 9. September.

Therefore MI made his second claim on the same day as Boelcke - on 9. September 1915. As well he describes that both - MI and Boelcke - fired on this air plane. Take the reports of both pilots and compare them and it becomes pretty clear that both report about the same victory. Immelmann saw "wie der feindliche Flieger beide Arme hochwirft". Boelcke reports the same with the words "er warf plötzlich beide Hände hoch". It is a significant feature of this combat!
In fact Immelmann mentioned the airplane type only once (Biplan) - this could be either misidentification or a "brain-made" mistake made during the writing of the letter. As well MI seems to think there was only one man in the airplane. Boelcke reports more correct.

Immelmann writes it was his victory, Boelcke wrote about "our" victory.
A line in a letter by Immelmann indicates arguments about 2 victories between both top pilots.

I noticed this identity many years ago but I don´t think I was the first to discover that. If I recall correct Norman Franks wrote about this identity in one of his books too.

[leo]

How would Brumowski and other Austrian piots stack up?

There aren't many qualified posters out there, myself included, but we sure have a lot of fun.

[Barrett]

Suggest that these two threads be consolidated.

Note in UTG that Goering's verified score is only 9 but there are 5 more sorta plausible.

From Marty O'Connor's A-H book, which we published at Champlin Press:

Brumowski 22/35 positive or possible ID
Arigi 15+/32 " "
Fiala 8+/28 " "

As noted elsewhere on this site, Rickenbacker at most goes 11/26 including 2 "grounders."

[Rob Romeor]

I started a new thread with some INSTRUCTIONS (Guidelines on how I propose we procede with this project) where I have already included your major contribution. I'm sorry you missed it. I'm now starting a third thread which I hope won't put off people like the with 'INSTRUCTIONS' in the title may have.

I'm not clear what you mean by the following

"(assuming the IDs were morts and not merely opponents.)"

Thanks Once Again

[Barrett]

Rob: The identifications in ATL do not necessarily mean the squadron lost somebody to that German ace. Chris Shores says that in some instances, "No. 1 Squadron" merely means that unit was engaged--not that the individual pilot definitely scored a kill. In many "furballs" you might have 4 kills and 7 claims so it's impossible to know if Ltn. Whosit was successful or not.

[Rob Romeor]

Hence the use of the PROPORTIONAL METHOD
4 Victories with 8 claims = .5 Verified Claims.