Percentage of Verfiable Victories of Various Aces.

[Rob Romeor]

Recently Barrett was kind enough to post the number of ‘Historically Verifiable Victories’ for Lothar von Richthofen. While such a yardstick is not 100% reliable (i.e., the debate over whether or not Lothar actually shot down Albert Ball), they can be a fairly good indicator (gaps in loss records not withstanding) of an ace’s actual success as well as -perhaps- of that individuals integrity and or ambition (–can we put a lot of stock in ‘Phantom’ LOL Ace Randy ‘Duke’ Cunningham (5) and his claim to have shoot down the mythical Col. Toon (13 *?!#) these days! ;-)

74 of 80 Claims (92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
33 of 40 Claims (82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
14 of 22 Claims (63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.1%)
31 of 57 Claims (54.2%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.1%)
?? of 48 Claims Werner Voss
?? of 15 Claims Max Immelmann

I include Voss and Immelmann, because I suspect that info can be ascertained from Franks et al. as well.

Feel free to include aces from other wars. ‘Pip’ Priller’s 101 Western front claims are considered to have been well supported by to RAF ace Johnnie Johnson (38)

Thanks Rob (oh well I might as well go with it) Romeor

P.S. God do I regret starting the Lothar & Manfred sibling rivalry thread!

[rammjaeger]

According to ATL German-Jewish ace Edmund Nathanael had 17 of 17 (100%)
but I did not cross-check that.

If I recall correct Immelmann has 14 of 15 but if I believe my own notes then he should have gotten two victories on his last day (which were given to others) and 2 or 3 victories more which were factual Allied losses but not confirmed by German authorities.

BTW Immelmanns second was also Boelckes third victory - I wonder if the German authorities did not realize that or if they were not pleased about a potential or real argument between both pilots.

[Skippy]

... but according to Johnson, IIRC in his great book, FULL CIRCLE, he was unable to verify the notorious "18 downed in one day" by Marseille; and he pretty much claimed that Marseille was-- ahem-- overclaiming...

As for Frank Luke, almost all of his victories were confirmed-- I mean, how do you NOT see a hydrogen-filled balloon engulfed in its own flames?-- but Captain Lewis, according to his own research, would add some qualifications:

1) That Luke's very first kill, which was unconfirmed, was in fact a true victory (for our purposes here, let's disregard it, as we're talking about confirmed victories);
2) That one of Luke's first balloon kills (his second or third?; I forget which) was described by Luke as being left in a "flabby" condition. Let's see now, that would make one sausage flamed and another overweight and out of shape...
3) That on Luke's last mission, 29 September 1918, while credited with three balloons (and, incidentially, awarded the MoH for this effort), he in fact shot down only one balloon, but a Fokker as well; this last was seen by an eyewitness, even though it wasn't the two unconfirmed Fokkers that Luke is said to have downed (see The Murvaux Affadavit from the 1960's in Luke's Aerodrome biography);

There are other points that the Captain would make regarding Luke's score, but I'm afraid I don't have his notes available; but I want to state that "Historically Verifiable Victories" might be much easier to verify or believe when they are filled with volatile hydrogen... and that, regarding victory claims of the Germans from WW2, caveat auditor...

[Rob Romeor]

Skippy states “Luke's very first kill, which was unconfirmed, was in fact a true victory (for our purposes here, let's disregard it, as we're talking about confirmed victories)”


Actually, my hope is to determine Actual Victories –whether claimed or not –with a confirmed percentage being an important though not all encompassing factor.




Skippy also brings up Hans Joachim Marseille (158) -Aaaahhhhhemmm!


Johnnie Johnson (38) derides Marseille’s ‘notorious "18 downed in one day". Johnson’s great mistake is that he relied RAF records forgoting his Empire’s commonwealth allies (the Australians, Canadians, South Africans, New Zealanders, and Indians –not to mention those rebellious colonials –the Americans) –tsk, tsk..


Almost 40 years ago Hans Ring and Christopher Shores wrote the fantastically researched “Fighters over the desert; the air battles in the Western Desert, June 1940 to December 1942” –to my knowledge it set the standard to which other aviation writers/researchers Lundstrom, Franks, etc. aspired. Concerning 1 Sep 42 -Marseilles greatest day- in which Marseille claimed 17 SOUTH AFRICAN aircraft in 3 hellacious combats (8 in a single sortie) the authors found evidence to support at least 12 of his claims! Moreover, in their work, they were able to verify over 100 of the 151 claims he made over the Desert (many of the others no doubt barely staggering back to base).


For instance, on 3 Jun 42, Marseille claimed 6 victories in 11 minutes –his 70-75th! Of his victims -P-40s of 5SAAF-AK384, AK421, AM401, AN262 were shot down outright, while two others were forced to belly land –six confirmed victories in my book. Marseille was a fantastic ace –perhaps the best. As none other than General der Jagdwaffe Adolf Galland (103) declared, “the unrivalled virtuoso.” An exceptional shot, he eventually averaged 15 rounds per kill often briefly concentrating his fire into the engine-cockpit in point blank high deflection bursts at the edge of a stall. He had numerous multiple kill missions. Moreover his diving/climbing stall turn into defensive circles was a tactical innovation –the ultimate solution to the tactical problem posed by Allied fighters over North Africa.



For the best article on the web on Marseille search for “Robert Tate”

There is also a listing of his victories on a Portugese Luftwaffe site –I tried to include it in this post, but was informed my message was TOO LONG!

If you want to find out about Luftwaffe aces, I highly recommend the Luftwaffe forum at Ruy Horta’s 12 O’clock high:


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8

[Epee]

Any figures for other Allied aces?

[duedicoppe]

Francesco Baracca had 36 officially confirmed victories before his death on June, 19th, 1918. We know the identity (crew, plane, serial, unit) of 35 of these.
Happy landings
Paolo

[Vin]

Billy Bishop.

[Rob Romeor]

Great Work Guys –here’s what we got so far: Lets keep it goin!!!

WWI Aces
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
31 of 57 Claims ( 54.2%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.1%)
17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.1%)
14 of 15 Claims ( 93.5%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
?? of 72 Claims Billy Bishop (Ooops did I jus open a can of worms?!?)
?? of 48 Claims Werner Voss

What about Voss guys –that should be easy for those of you who have Franks’ book.

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (~63.2%) Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain –perhaps someone can come up with a more precise figure on Hans-Joachim Marseille’s claims based on Hans Ring & Christopher Shores “Fighters over the desert; the air battles in the Western Desert, June 1940 to December 1942.”

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?

[Rob Romeor]

100 of 151 Claims (~66.2%)

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
I don't think any of you are qualified to make such claims. Why? You don't have all the records. Without all the pertinent records or combat reports, you are whistling Dixie?
You would need to have the daily reports for every squadron/escadrille/Jasta whatever. I don't believe anyone has the ALL the records.
In regard to MvR, I have seen a lists where everyone of his victories has the pilot/crew names and RFC squadron number, aircraft type and serial number. I have a fair amount of records, I can't do it, although once in awhile I get lucky.
That's my two cents worth!
Blue skies,
Dan-San