Percentage of Verfiable Victories of Various Aces -INSTRUCTIONS

[Rob Romeor]

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is a fun and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases greatly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventully (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the accuracy or even the sincerity of their submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and from documents/records it is possible to veryify that he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc.).

INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!

WWI Aces
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
?? of 72 Claims Billy Bishop (Ooops did I jus open a can of worms?!?) ;-)
?? of 48 Claims Werner Voss

What about Voss guys –that should be easy for those of you who have Franks’ book.

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (~66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 352 Claims (~22.7%) Erich Hartmann –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Gabby Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
9 of 31 Claims ( 29%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?

Thanx,

Rob Romero

[Barrett]

An intriguing project, though as noted, some entries are bound to prove controversial. I'd be interested in how the Russians arrived at the Hartmann total.

Over the Lines indicates 46/48 for Voss
30/62 for Udet
27/54 for Lowenhardt
25/48 for Jacobs
32/45 for Rumey
25/44 for Berthold
24/44 for Loerzer
22/43 for Baumer
23/40 for Boelcke
11/40 for Buchner
33/33 for Kurt Wolff *
28/31 for Billik
30/30 for Allmenroder *
25/30 for K. Schaefer
26/28 for Roth

Note that the scholarship dates from the late 1980s so some figures almost certainly will be higher (Baumer excepted). The biggest gaps generally occur when flying against the French. Also, it's clear that some aces were not as thoroughly researched as others.

Another caveat: in the cases of total or near unanimity, be advised that because the enemy units were identified does not necessarily mean there was a smoking hole in the ground.

Number crunchers: The median "confirmed" figure for these 15 Germans is 64%, and I daresay that's far beyond the Allied statistics. (Hereby eschewing any further study of Billy Boy!)

We'll prob'ly never get comparable figures for the French aces because the primary documents (action reports) are so erratic.

[Rob Romeor]

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the accuracy of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).


So far the results reflect well on Jasta 11 –it seems the unit maintains an exceptional degree of integrity in making –and bestow even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII. Perhaps this is due to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” rather than just shoot them down.

MvR’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Boys
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
195 of 213 Claims ( 91.5%) WOW! OFF THE CHARTS!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations?



WWI Aces
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenroder *
30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl Schaefer
23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Boelcke
22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Bäumer
17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) Franz Buchner
?? of 72 Claims Billy Bishop (Ooops did I jus open a can of worms?!?) ;-)
What about Voss guys –that should be easy for those of you who have Franks’ book.

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (~66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 352 Claims (~22.7%) Erich Hartmann –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Gabby Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
9 of 31 Claims ( 29%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s DECIMAL SYSTEM:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE DECIMAL SYSTEM MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)



-Thanks Barrett for the sizeable contribution. A few years ago there was a lot of controversy concerning Hartmann’s Mustang claims –some people scoffing at them. However this view has evolved. The following is a copied post concerning :

Erich Hartmann's
victories over 4 USAAF P-51 Mustangs on June 24, 1944. The Mustangs were escorting B-17's on a mission to bomb Ploesti.

All 4 P-51 are confirmed.
Hartmann's Staffel shot down 6 P-51 including 4 Hartman's
It were 2 P-51B and 1 P-51C from 52 FG at:
9:40 Lt .Fisher
9:45 Lt. Robinett
1:00 Lt. Burwell
Propably Burwell and Robinett were shot down by Hartmann
Then they meet 4 P-51 from 325 FG and shot down 3 of them including 2 Hartmann's kills.
P-51s Pilots :
Lt. Mueller
Lt. Osterhus
Lt. Hanson
This Info is from excellent polish book "Elita Luftwaffe" (by Robert Michulec)

[rammjaeger]

Where did you find Laurent Rizzotti’s DECIMAL SYSTEM?
Never heard before this term.

BTW Franz Büchner illustrates how fast these numbers can change with access to better sources. Currently I would give him a number between 26 and 34 - depending on the way of counting. BTW 1/3 of his victims were US-Americans.

[Rob Romeor]

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the authenticity of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).

Already I think it is safe to say that we can reach a historical conclusion! So far the results reflect exceedingly well on Jasta 11 -it seems the unit maintained an exceptional degree of integrity in making claims –and bestows even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. Perhaps this is consequent to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!”. This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII.
These results will also undoubtedly place an even greater gap between Jasta 11 and any rival unit in terms of its status as an elite unit (is Bölcke already starting to tarnish Jasta 2’s luster? -he was still nevertheless a great combat leader).

Richthofen’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Gang
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
195 of 213 Claims ( 91.5%) WOW! OFF THE CHARTS!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations? I mean they make Göring look good!

WWI Aces
1) 74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
2) 46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
3) 35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
4) 33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
5) 33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
6) 32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
7) 31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
8) 30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
9) 30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
10) 27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
11) 25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
12) 25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
13) 24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
14) 28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
15) 26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
16) 26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) Franz Büchner (Possibly 34/40 Claims 85%) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW
17) 25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
18) 23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Boelcke
19) 22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Bäumer
20) 17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
21) 14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
22) 14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)

Ace Records Requiring further evaluation

Franz Büchner
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) –as per Barret
26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) –strict accounting as per Rammjaeger (this seems to utilize more up to date info than OTF)
34 of 40 Claims ( 85.0%) –a more liberal accouting by Rammjaeger

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (+66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 352 Claims (~22.7%) Erich Hartmann –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Francis ‘Gabby’ Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
9 of 31 Claims ( 29%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s DECIMAL SYSTEM:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE DECIMAL SYSTEM MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)

-In response to Rammjaeger’s querry, Laurent Rizzotti proposed this reasonable and logical system in a post at Ruy Horta’s site TOCH –I am open to all cogent suggestions.

[Paul Forster]

Another "Bloody April Boy" with a high percentage is Sabastian Festner with 11 out of 12.

[Rob Romeor]

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the authenticity of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).

Already I think it is safe to say that we can reach a historical conclusion! So far the results reflect exceedingly well on Jasta 11 -it seems the unit maintained an exceptional degree of integrity in making claims –and bestows even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. Perhaps this is consequent to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” At 82.5% Lothar comes out as a relative braggart! LOL This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII.
These results will also undoubtedly place an even greater gap between Jasta 11 and any rival unit in terms of its status as an elite unit (is Bölcke already starting to tarnish Jasta 2’s luster? -he was still nevertheless a great combat leader and a father of air combat tactics).

Richthofen’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Gang
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
206 of 225 Claims ( 91.6%) EXCEPTIONAL CLAIM VERACITY!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations - they make Göring look good!

WWI Aces
1) 74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
2) 46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
3) 35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
4) 33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
5) 33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
6) 32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
7) 31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
8) 30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
9) 30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
10) 27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
11) 25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
12) 25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
13) 24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
14) 28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
15) 26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
16) 26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) Franz Büchner (Possibly 34/40 Claims 85%) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW
17) 25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
18) 23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Bölcke
19) 22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Bäumer
20) 17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
21) 14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
22) 14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
23) 11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
24) 02 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) Billy Bishop WTF –is this even possible? (http://www.billybishop.net/bishopP.html)

ACE RECORDS REQUIRING FURTHER EVALUATION
Franz Büchner
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) –as per Barret (source Above The Lines?)
26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) –strict accounting as per Rammjaeger (this seems to utilize more up to date info than ATL)
34 of 40 Claims ( 85.0%) –a more liberal accouting by Rammjaeger

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (+66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 345 Claims (~23.2%) Erich Hartmann (352) –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Francis ‘Gabby’ Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
9 of 31 Claims ( 29.0%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s DECIMAL SYSTEM:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE DECIMAL SYSTEM MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) Pilot X (DECIMAL SYSTEM 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)

-In response to Rammjaeger’s querry, Laurent Rizzotti proposed this reasonable and logical system in a post at Ruy Horta’s site TOCH –I am open to all cogent suggestions.

[Barrett]

Ref. Hartmann's Mustangs: I believe he only claimed two. Unfortunately, Ray Toliver's bio was compiled with incomplete data and much of the late-war material relied on EH's memory. Since then his victory log has been completed and should be available on Ruy Horta's "Horrido" site. A recent Flight Journal article dissected Hartmann's fight against Mustangs which ran him out of fuel. The leading 51 pilot was Lt. Bob Goebel, 31st FG.