Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Updates & Recommendations

[Rob Romeor]

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the authenticity of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).

Already I think it is safe to say that we can reach a historical conclusion! So far the results reflect exceedingly well on Jasta 11 -it seems the unit maintained an exceptional degree of integrity in making claims –and bestows even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. Perhaps this is consequent to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” At 82.5% Lothar comes out as a relative braggart! LOL This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII.
These results will also undoubtedly place an even greater gap between Jasta 11 and any rival unit in terms of its status as an elite unit (is Bölcke already starting to tarnish Jasta 2’s luster? -he was still nevertheless a great combat leader and a father of air combat tactics).

Richthofen’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Gang
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
206 of 225 Claims ( 91.6%) EXCEPTIONAL CLAIM VERACITY!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations - they make Göring look good!

WWI Aces
1) 74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
2) 60 of 61 Claims ( 98.4%) Edward ‘Mick’ Mannock (Possibly 61 of 61 Claims 100.0%)
3) 46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
4) 35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
5) 33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
6) 33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
7) 32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
8) 31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
9) 30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
10) 30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
11) 27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
12) 25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
13) 25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
14) 24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
15) 28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
16) 26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
17) 26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) Franz Büchner (Possibly 34/40 Claims 85%) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW
18) 25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
19) 23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Bölcke
20) 22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Baumer
21) 17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
22) 14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
23) 14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
24) 11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
25) 02 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) Billy Bishop (billybishop.net/bishopP.html) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW

ACE RECORDS REQUIRING FURTHER EVALUATION
Franz Büchner
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) –as per Barret (source Above The Lines?)
26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) –strict accounting as per Rammjaeger (this seems to utilize more up to date info than ATL)
34 of 40 Claims ( 85.0%) –a more liberal accouting by Rammjaeger

Billy Bishop
02 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) –It seems impossible to me that such exaggeration would be tolerated by his squadron.
~43 of 72 Claims (~60.0%)
~58 of 72 Claims (~80.0%)
~61 of 72 Claims (~85.0%)

WWII Aces
1) ??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
2) 100 of 151 Claims (+66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
3) ~80 of 345 Claims (~23.2%) Erich Hartmann (352) –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
4) 25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
5) 21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Francis ‘Gabby’ Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
6) 15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai -top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
7) ~9.5 of 26 Claims ( 36.5%) Gregory ‘Pappy’ Boyington - PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
8) 9 of 31 Claims ( 29.0%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Korean War
Nikolai Sutyagin
1.46 of 21 Claims (07.0%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
5 of 21 Claims (23.8%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD with ‘Benefit of Doubt’ JoeB


Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s PROPORTIONAL METHOD:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE PROPORTIONAL METHOD MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) Pilot X (PROPORTIONAL METHOD 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)

-In response to Rammjaeger’s querry, Laurent Rizzotti proposed this reasonable and logical system in a post at Ruy Horta’s site TOCH –I am open to all cogent suggestions.

[Rob Romeor]

Verifiable Victories of 29 WWI Aces / 9 WWII Aces / 1 Korean War Ace

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the authenticity of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).

Already I think it is safe to say that we can reach a historical conclusion! So far the results reflect exceedingly well on Jasta 11 -it seems the unit maintained an exceptional degree of integrity in making claims –and bestows even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. Perhaps this is consequent to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” At 82.5% Lothar comes out as a relative braggart! LOL This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII.
These results will also undoubtedly place an even greater gap between Jasta 11 and any rival unit in terms of its status as an elite unit (is Bölcke already starting to tarnish Jasta 2’s luster? -he was still nevertheless a great combat leader and a father of air combat tactics).

Richthofen’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Gang
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
206 of 225 Claims ( 91.6%) EXCEPTIONAL CLAIM VERACITY!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations - they make Göring look good!

29 WWI Aces
1) 74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
2) 60 of 61 Claims ( 98.4%) Edward ‘Mick’ Mannock (Possibly 61 of 61 Claims 100.0%)
3) 46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
4) 35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
5) 33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
6) 33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
7) 32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
8) 31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
9) 30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
10) 30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
11) 27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
12) 25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
13) 25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
14) 24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
15) 22 of 35 Claims ( 62.9%) Goodwin Brumowski positive or possible ID –Top Austrian WWI Ace
16) 28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
17) 26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
18) 26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) Franz Büchner (Possibly 34/40 Claims 85%) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW
19) 25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
20) 23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Bölcke
21) 22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Baumer
22) 17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
23) 15 of 32 Claims ( 46.9%) Julius Arigi (15+ are Verified) Austrian
24) 14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
25) 11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
26) 11 of 26 Claims (42.3%) Eddie Rickenbacker including 2 “grounders” –2 Crash Landed?
27) 9 of 22 Claims ( 40.9%) Hermann Göring Possibly 14 of 22 Claims (63.6%) or 15 of 22 Claims (68.2%)
28) 8 of 28 Claims (28.6%) Benno Fiala Ritter von Fernbrugg -Austrian
29) 2 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) Billy Bishop (billybishop.net/bishopP.html) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW

ACE RECORDS REQUIRING FURTHER EVALUATION
Franz Büchner
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) –as per Barret (source Above The Lines?)
26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) –strict accounting as per Rammjaeger (this seems to utilize more up to date info than ATL)
34 of 40 Claims ( 85.0%) –a more liberal accouting by Rammjaeger

Billy Bishop
02 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) –It seems impossible to me that such exaggeration would be tolerated by his squadron.
20 of 72 Claims ( 27.8%) –more recent evaluation of German Records than at billybishop.net/bishopP.html
~43 of 72 Claims (~60.0%) –as per ?
~58 of 72 Claims (~80.0%) –as per ?
~61 of 72 Claims (~85.0%) –as per ?

9 WWII Aces
1) ??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
2) 100 of 151 Claims (+66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
3) ~80 of 345 Claims (~23.2%) Erich Hartmann (352) -Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
4) 74 of 121 Claims ( 61.2%) Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer -Top NJG Ace (much higher verification % has been indicated)
5) 25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
6) 21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Francis ‘Gabby’ Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
7) 15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai -top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
8) ~9.5 of 26 Claims ( 36.5%) Gregory ‘Pappy’ Boyington - PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
9) 9 of 31 Claims ( 29.0%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Korean War
Nikolai Sutyagin
1.46 of 21 Claims (07.0%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
5 of 21 Claims (23.8%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD with ‘Benefit of Doubt’ JoeB


Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s PROPORTIONAL METHOD:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE PROPORTIONAL METHOD MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) Pilot X (PROPORTIONAL METHOD 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)

[adrian roberts]

Billy Bishop
02 of 72 Claims ( 02.8%) –It seems impossible to me that such exaggeration would be tolerated by his squadron.

Billy Bishop seems to be the case above all others where virtually no claims were verifiable. I can't add more original reasearch to the subject of exact numbers but I note that his entry on this site (while still giving a figure of 72) now has a list of BB claims and a list of German airman fatalities for those dates - few or none of the Germans died geographically near where BB claimed.

However I have done some thinking about how could he have got away with it - why did hardened veterans of 60 and 85 sqdns not question his claims? Most of his claims were on lone patrols: lone patrols were not unknown during his time with 60 sqdn in mid-1917, but most unusual by the time he led 85 a year later. Possibly the bigger the lie, the easier to believe it. The Emperor’s new clothes syndrome. Last Christmas (2005) on British TV there was a series where ten members of the public were fooled for two weeks into thinking that they were being trained to go into orbit in a Russian Space Shuttle, and then the three who came “top” in the training were made to believe that they were up in a Shuttle simulator for several days. Afterwards they all said they had doubts at times, but they wanted to believe it was all true, and were afraid of ridicule by the others if they broke ranks.

Maybe Bishop realised that the RFC system of claiming victories was open to exploitation, found that a small lie led to more and bigger ones, and found that the hierarchy gave tacit encouragement to this. His CO Major Scott’s role is a subject in itself; he would seem to have even more screws loose than BB. Why he did he sign off Bishop's combat reports? Did he simply believe that the the glory would reflect on him as CO? He seems to have pushed through the VC award via unorthodox channels. Did he have some character defect that prevented him from challenging Bishop - wanting to be liked? Whether or not Bishop set out to deceive, as his reputation increased he got into the situation where he had no option - to go back was more dangerous than to go on. And 60 and 85 sqdn personnel would have closed ranks. I had wondered why William Barker VC who became Bishops business partner did not see through him (as far as we know) - but he did not serve alongside BB in the war so had no reason doubt him. Willie Fry, who did serve with BB, did have doubts and has left documents specifying these.

I am normally totally opposed to the practice of denigrating military or other heroes of the past. Only a few weeks ago I wrote to my local newspaper making at least a qualified defence of Haig, in answer to another letter spouting the Generals-were-butchers theory. But the evidence against Bishop appears insurmountable. It appears that a con-man has got into the pantheon of heroes.

Adrian

[R Pope]

In my eyes, all this rehashing of "scores" and trying to diminish the accomplishments of long-dead soldiers seems to be no more than mental masturbation. It makes one feel good, but doesn't affect anyone else very much. I prefer to think they did their jobs, some better than others, and deserve their rest. We owe them the world we enjoy today. With all their human failures and foibles, there are few today who can even comprehend the conditions under which they struggled, so cut 'em some slack.

[duedicoppe]

Dear friends,
when I wrote my message about the victories of Francesco Baracca, I hit the wrong key...
He has 33 confirmed victories of 34. Only now I understand why he was so angry yesterday night, in my usual dream...
Sorry.
Paolo

[DEM]

Adrian

How many times do we have to say that German records are incomplete?

Let's give other aces 'the Bishop treatment.'

Hawker got the VC for seven kills. German records confim one of them. Let's strip him of the VC and call him a liar and a cheat.

Ball got the VC for 12 kills in the spring of 1917. Forget the three possible German confirmations in OTF, they've all since been discredited on this forum. Subtract all 12 from his total, strip him of the VC and put him in the charlatan category.

Collishaw had 60 kills, none of which show up in German records. Take away his DSO, call him a liar and a cheat.

Barker won the VC for a fight that doesn't show up in German records. Subtract four kills, take away his VC and put him in with the other con men.

Jerrard won the VC for downing three planes over an Austrian airfield, none of which show up in enemy casualty lists. Strip him of his VC.

Mannock got the VC for 61 kills but only about 15 are confirmed for certain by German records.

Rickenbacker got the Medal of Honor for downing two planes, neither of which can be confirmed by German records.

I could go on all night with this. How many McElroy kills are confirmed? Or how many of Fonck's?

I sometimes think Bishop is singled out because a lot of British grousers don't like the fact that a man from the colonies did so well. When it's pointed out that balloonist Louis Weiter witnessed the VC raid, he is called a lair, even though modern research shows he COULD have seen it. And nobody takes any account of the fact that French civilian Gaston Meunier said he saw it. The claim that the VC raid was not witnessed is not correct. There were two witnesses. I don't see how they can be dismissed simply by saying, "I don't believe them. They may have been there and I wasn't, but heck, I've decided they were lairs."

[Rob Romeor]

Verifiable Victories of 24 WWI Central Power Aces / 2 WWI Allied Aces / 9 WWII Aces / 1 Korean War Ace

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the authenticity of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).

24 WWI Central Power Aces (Easier to confirm due to more complete records of Allied Losses)
1) 74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
2) 46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
3) 33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
4) 33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
5) 32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
6) 30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
7) 30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
8) 27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
9) 25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
10) 25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
11) 24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
12) 22 of 35 Claims ( 62.9%) Goodwin Brumowski positive or possible ID –Top Austrian WWI Ace
13) 28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
14) 26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
15) 26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) Franz Büchner (Possibly 34/40 Claims 85%) REQUIRES FURTHER EVALUATION –SEE BELOW
16) 25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
17) 23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Bölcke
18) 22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Baumer
19) 17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)
20) 15 of 32 Claims ( 46.9%) Julius Arigi (15+ are Verified) Austrian
21) 14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
22) 11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
23) 9 of 22 Claims ( 40.9%) Hermann Göring Possibly 14 of 22 Claims (63.6%) or 15 of 22 Claims (68.2%)
24) 8 of 28 Claims ( 28.6%) Benno Fiala Ritter von Fernbrugg –Austrian


2 WWI ALLIED ACE RECORDS
1) 35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
2) 31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)


1 WWI CENTRAL POWER ACE RECORDS REQUIRING FURTHER EVALUATION
Franz Büchner
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) –as per Barrett (source Above The Lines?)
26 of 40 Claims ( 65.0%) –strict accounting as per Rammjaeger (this seems to utilize more up to date info than ATL)
34 of 40 Claims ( 85.0%) –a more liberal accouting by Rammjaeger

5 WWI ALLIED ACE RECORDS REQUIRING FURTHER EVALUATION
CAVEAT: It is much more difficult to check WWI Allied Claims against the incomplete Central Power Loss Records! Moreover, the actual ‘Official’ credits are being revised to include ‘Kill’ claims only (i.e., including not Out Of Control (OOC) etc.)

Billy Bishop (55 Credited Kills / 72 Official Victories)
20 of 55 Claims ( 36.4%) -more recent evaluation of German Records than at billybishop.net/bishopP.html -as per Al Lowe 6 Oct 98
2 of 55 Claims ( 03.6%) -It seems highly unlikely to me that such exaggeration would be tolerated by his squadron

Edward ‘Mick’ Mannock (38.28 Credited Kills / 61 Official Victories)
15 of 38 Claims ( 39.2%) -as per DEM 2 Oct 06

Eddie Rickenbacker (38.28 Credited Kills / 26 Official Victories)
11 of 26 Claims ( 42.3%) including 2 “grounders” –2 Crash Landed?

Lanoe Hawker (3 Credited Kills / 7 Official Victories)
1 of 3 Claims ( 33.3%) -as per DEM 2 Oct 06

Raymond Collishaw (29.2 Credited Kills / 60 Official Victories)
0 of 29 Claims ( 00.0%) - as per DEM 2 Oct 06

Could someone explain the following terminology in regard to Allied Victory Claims?
FTL?
CAP?
DESF?


9 WWII Aces
1) ??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
2) 100 of 151 Claims (+66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
3) ~80 of 345 Claims (~23.2%) Erich Hartmann (352) -Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
4) 74 of 121 Claims ( 61.2%) Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer -Top NJG Ace (much higher verification % has been indicated)
5) 25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
6) 21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Francis ‘Gabby’ Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
7) 15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai -top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
8) ~9.5 of 26 Claims ( 36.5%) Gregory ‘Pappy’ Boyington - PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
9) 9 of 31 Claims ( 29.0%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Korean War
Nikolai Sutyagin
1.46 of 21 Claims (07.0%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD JoeB
5 of 21 Claims (23.8%) PROPORTIONAL METHOD with ‘Benefit of Doubt’ JoeB


Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s PROPORTIONAL METHOD:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.

THE PROPORTIONAL METHOD MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS UNLESS NO OTHER METHOD OF CALCULATION IS USED –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) Pilot X (PROPORTIONAL METHOD 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)


Already I think it is safe to say that we can reach a historical conclusion! So far the results reflect exceedingly well on Jasta 11 -it seems the unit maintained an exceptional degree of integrity in making claims –and bestows even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. Perhaps this is consequent to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” At 82.5% Lothar comes out as a relative braggart! LOL This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII.
These results will also undoubtedly place an even greater gap between Jasta 11 and any rival unit in terms of its status as an elite unit (is Bölcke already starting to tarnish Jasta 2’s luster? -he was still nevertheless a great combat leader and a father of air combat tactics).

Richthofen’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Gang
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
11 of 12 Claims ( 91.7%) Sebastien Festner
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
206 of 225 Claims ( 91.6%) Jasta 11 - EXCEPTIONAL CLAIM VERACITY!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations - they make Göring look good!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Rob Romeor

Could someone explain the following terminology in regard to Allied Victory Claims?
FTL?
CAP?
DESF?

FTL = Forced To Land
CAP = CAPtured
DESF = DEStroyed in Flames

At least hat's the way I would read them. R.

[duckman]

Well, Rob, as one who once tried a similar exercise, I can only say "hals und beinbruch"!

Out of curiosity, how do you treat non-credited kills? A pilot claims a victory. The claim is rejected by the brass. 90 years later we realise that the claim was valid. Last time I looked through this sort of thing, I came across a few.

If you just add it in, you'll finish up (potentially) with greater than 100% confirmation rate...

[Rob Romeor]

Yes, this has already been noted in the case of Immelmann -see above.

Perhaps in such cases -a pilots claim veracity should exceed 100% as do quarterback ratings in American Football -but for now, to avoid confusion, I'll just note it like I did Max's.

I'm most interested in knowing what instances of this you've come across.