Was J. McCudden, really Richthofen's 15th kill?

[scooterjmuggs]

I have been told that there is an explanation of whether James McCudden was really Von Richthofen's 15th kill in the book Under the Guns of the Red Baron. I have ordered a copy of the book as it sounds very informative but can't wait that long to find the answer. In his bio Flying Fury, McCudden states that he joined combat with an Albatros D II (well flown) with leader streamers on it on December 27, 1916. He also states that he returned to his aerodrome after this encounter. Von Richthofen has been credited with shooting down a DH 2 (McCudden's 5985) South of Arras on that date. Who are we to believe? McCudden's flight mates apparently feared he had been shot down and told him as much when he landed on his aerodrome much later.

I am a new member still learning and the suspense is killing me, what is the real story? I can't wait to read it in the book. Can anyone enlighten me before hand?

[Ginger.]

Welcome to the Squadron old bean. It just gets curiouser and curiouser as The Von's combat report for his 15th victim on Dec 27 1916 reads:-

At 1615, five planes of our Staffel attacked enemy Squadron south of Arras. The enemy approached our lines but were thrown back. After some fighting I managed to attack a very courageously flown Vickers two-seater. After 300 shots, the enemy plane began dropping, uncontrolled. I pursued the plane up to 1,000 metres above the ground. Enemy plane crashed to ground on enemy side, one kilometre behind trenches near Ficheux.
Weather: Mist in the morning, clearing later.

According to Under the Guns of the Red Baron there are no records of an FE2b two seater being lost that day behind the lines at Arras or anywhere else for that matter! You will enjoy the book as it's very informative, the illustrations are superb.

[Pips]

According to the list of kills in Floyd Gibbons book "The Red Knight Of Germany" Von Richthofen's 15th kill was a F.E.2, occupants unidentified.

A similar list in Peter Kilduff's book "The Red Baron, Beyond the Legend" contains the additional information that it was a F.E. 2b (serial 6937) of 11 Sqn, Lt. H J H Dicksee (WIA) and Capt.J B Quested, shot down at 1625hrs in the Ficheux/Arras area.

[Graeme]

Curiouser and curiouser indeed ..... according to The Sky Their Battlefield, Quested and Dicksee were attacked at 11:15 near Wancourt; Richthofen's claim was made three hours later.

OffStllv Walter Cymera of Jasta 1 made a claim at 12:20 German time (only five minutes adrift, allowing for the hour's difference in the clocks). The claim is listed at Cherisy which is a little further south-east of Wancourt but is still a pretty good match for location.

A nice map of the area is here:

http://maps.google.fr/maps?oi=eu_map&q=Wancourt&hl=en

Graeme

[Tailspin]

...if it's the wrong time of day, the wrong type of plane and the wrong place, it isn't much of a match - is it?

Tom

[scooterjmuggs]

If all of these posts are correct then someone should let the webmaster of this site know as they have Von Richthofen's 15th kill listed as a DH 2 of McCudden shot down on December 27th at 1645 I think.
Would like to know where their information came from.

Thanks scooterjmuggs.

[totoroman]

technically, Richthofen did not shoot down McCudden's plane. in the book, it clearly states that there are no directly corresponding British losses given the time and location described by Richthofen. they go on to explain that "Vickers" type aircraft were easily confused amongst each other (especially if you're chasing them from behind... a pusher "lattice tail" type is probably gonna look pretty similar in a savage dogfight... and I doubt anybody could distinguish between an FE8 and a DH2 in combat!!!

based on my readings, I think the Aerodrome (and "Under the Guns of the Red Baron") have the most reasonable interpretations of the event.

THAT interpretation makes more sense than the others (with huge time lags between claims and actual kills).

the other funny anecdote is that McCudden describes how he was scarcely damaged (if it all in the fight) whereas one of his comrades (who was attacked by Bohme--the more experienced pilot, if memory serves) was "riddled" in a matter of seconds.

[alex_revell]

While there is some validity to the theory that McCudden was Von R's 15th victory (time and place certainly fit) some things do not match up. Firstly: I find it hard to believe that Von R would mistake a little DH2 (wingspan 28' 3" length 25' 2 1/2") with the much larger FE2b (wingspan 47' 9" Length 32' 3") after a fairly prolonged combat, let alone that it was not a twoseater. Von R had shot down 5 FE2bs by this date and had no doubt seen many more in the air. In anticipation, let me say that I don't buy the heat and speed of combat scenario. Speeds were not only low, but relative. It would be the equivilant of driving behind a car on the motorway at 60/70mph, thinking it was a Jaguar only to pass it and see it was an MG. Secondly: McCudden says that the EA left him at 800ft, yet von R in his combat report says that he left the enemy plane at 1,000metres, which is 3,250 feet. I believe both are accurate assessments by each pilot. Von R would not have followed an enemy aeroplane down to within 8oo feet of the ground and McCudden had the reputation of being a very accurate reporter of events in respect of place, heights etc. As for von R reporting that the enemy aeroplane crashed. This must pose a dilemma for the von R enthusiasts. If they accept the 'victory' over McCudden theory, then von R was telling a porky in saying that he saw the crash. Personally, I think von R was lucky that Mac had a gun jamb.

[scooterjmuggs]

Oh well, I guess there is really no definitive proof. Since McCudden was considered very honest and precise with his observations etc. it would appear that the Baron really only shot down 79 aircraft. I don't really believe that Von Richthofen would mistake a DH2 for an FE8 either. He was very much the hunter and an opportunist that often would spot a lone plane or a cripple leaving the battle and would then drop on it like a hawk. He seldom missed in such engagements. I think if he was pursuing McCudden and McCudden's gun was jammed then he would certainly have shot him down.
But I am unwilling to believe that McCudden would lie about returning safely to his aerodrome. It would seem that like so many other pilots, Von Richthofen's total claims do not stand up to history. Oh well, he was still the ace of aces anyway! The Baron's own death is not the only controversy to surround him it would appear.

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by scooterjmuggs

it would appear that the Baron really only shot down 79

It would seem that like so many other pilots, Von Richthofen's total claims do not stand up to history.

Hi Scooterjmuggs.

I brought this subject up last January. Thought you might be interested:

MVR: 75 not 80?

Regards.

Bucky.