Tell me about Raymond Collishaw

Romani · 28 January 2007, 02:53 AM

I don't know why, but

Raymond Collishaw seems to be a bit overlooked. Beats me why, being an ace in such a cool machine as a black triplane. All the spotlight is focused on

Edward Mannock, the equivalent to MvR; the controversial

Billy Bishop who could be loosely compared with

Rene Fonck or

Hermann Goering, or

Albert Ball who is sort of the British Guynemer. I guess that makes Collishaw by default the British Loewenhardt, the third ranking ace who nobody remembers despite his impressive score.

I know little about this ace other than the short biographies found in books and websites. I know that his score is inflated due to the RFC scoring system, and I was struck by a post (that I unfortunately can't find) years ago in The Aerodrome by a historian that had interviewed him in the 1960s who described him in not a very positive light.

I wish I could remember the particulars, but seems he was a braggart, not exactly a reliable source, making up tall tales like that he had shot down

Karl Allmenroeder, in a way resembling the German ace

Theodor Osterkamp, though I don't think he had such a penchant for fairy tales, and I think he was bitter and jeaulous towards Bishop because he got more recognition and glory than him.

So tell me, what kind of ace was he? An oberblown figure like Bishop? Or somebody that doesn't get the respect he deserves like Fonck?

Just curious!

rainbase · 28 January 2007, 05:11 AM

Collishaw certainly had a long and fabulous career in aviation. After the First World War he flew and fought in Russia (1919) and then rose to the rank of Air Vice-Marshall in WW2.

It was much later, when Collishaw became somewhat of an air historian that he became a controversal figure. When Evan Haddington was researching his 1968 book "The Fighting Triplanes", the Canadian ace made himself very available to the young author, but was, unfortunately not up to snuff with his "facts". Collishaw's biggest blunder seems to have been in his "alternate version" of

Werner Voss' death, in which he claims Voss escaped the battle with RFC 56 Squadron and was killed shortly afterwards by an RNAS pilot. If memory serves, Collishaw's "evidence' comes from research he did himself involving correspondances with Germen airmen. In "September Evening" Barry Diggens does a nice job tackling this issue.

In the case of Allmenroeder, Collishaw had apparently fired at the German's Albatros from a very long range. Allmeroeder was shortly afterwards seen to nose over in a shallowed dive that eventually steepened before crashing in no man's land. At the time, Collishaw hadn't bothered to submit a claim. This seems to be the root of the controversy surrounding Allmenroeder's death.

Whatever history remembers of

Ray Collishaw one thing is certain; he did shoot down a bunch of German airplanes and was one of the most effective pilot and squadron leaders of the British Empire. Certainly he deserves a great respect. Myself, I would love to see a definitive biography researched and written about his wartime career.

28 January 2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbase

In the case of Allmenroeder, Collishaw had apparently fired at the German's Albatros from a very long range. Allmeroeder was shortly afterwards seen to nose over in a shallowed dive that eventually steepened before crashing in no man's land. At the time, Collishaw hadn't bothered to submit a claim. This seems to be the root of the controversy surrounding Allmenroeder's death.

Allmenroeder was already dead in the time of Collishaw's 'claim'. He was most probably shot down by ground fire in the morning.

Bettors Pub · 28 January 2007, 06:46 AM

I think the general consensus at this point is that Allmenroeder was hit by AA fire and dead a full eight hours to Collishaw's "claim". Also regarding Collishaw, I think you'll find that his record rivals only the of Bishop for LACK of corresponding German losses. FWIW.

R Pope · 28 January 2007, 06:58 AM

I'm a bit gunshy about Collishaw on this forum. I mentioned some time ago that I phoned him in the late '50's and asked him about the colour of his Tripe. He was very pleasant and outgoing to a nervy 13-year-old, and talked for quite some time. He said the squadron tried to paint the planes all black, but lack of time and paint resulted in a job never quite done. Any damaged panels were, of course, replaced with standard colour parts.
Anyway, this story drew disbelief from some other forumites, who graciously never accused me of fibbing, but did cast aspersions as to the veracity of Mr. C. I figure, if you can't get your history from the guys that did it, who do you believe?

Gregvan · 28 January 2007, 09:05 AM

Hi,

There is, of course, Collishaw's own memoirs: "Air Command, A Fighter Pilot's Story," by Collishaw with R V Dodds, William Kimber, London, 1973.

For a very balanced and meticulously researched view of Colly's activities in No 10 Sqn, you can do no better than 'A History of No. 10 Squadron Royal Naval Air Service in WWI" by the forum's own Mike Westrop (Schiffer, 2004, ISBN 0-7643-2055-6). Superbly documented and written, with wonderful photos and colour profiles by Mark Miller.

Greg

jonightflyer · 28 January 2007, 11:29 AM

Not strictly relevant to WW1, but my Uncle served under Collishaw in the Desert Air Force during WW2 and I thought the following extract from his privately published flying memoir in which he gives his first impressions of the AOC might be enlightening!

Quote: " Desert Air Force HQ was near Matruh. The AOC was Air Cdre Collishaw who had been a tremendous fighter ace on the Western Front in WW1. He was a 'character', stiff with decorations but, may I say it, his talents for organisation did not equal his thrust and energy. Fighter ops may have appeared free and easy but in reality, demand first class staff work. Just then we did not have it.

Colly, as he was known, liked to keep his finger on the pulse and insisted that each leading pilot should ring him personally after a sortie. One famous dialogue went like this:

"How'd you get on, boy? You shot down three Messerschmitts, good show, boy! - What's that? - three Messerschmitts shot you down, Good show, boy, good show"

Ginger. · 28 January 2007, 11:38 AM

"How'd you get on, boy? You shot down three Messerschmitts, good show, boy! - What's that? - three Messerschmitts shot you down, Good show, boy, good show"

Daft stories like that concerning the 'Brasshats' going round the Squadrons could be a tremendous fillip to morale!

MilesC · 28 January 2007, 05:05 PM

While I have a great deal of respect for a flier like Collishaw, I suspect that he wasn't up to snuff on administrative details, or had a good handle on how to organise "modern" squadrons in WWII, especially after his stint in north Africa. I believe that his "retirement" in 1943 is the result of him over-reaching his abilities as an AVM. Pity!