Voss Ran out of Bullets

[tcrean7828]

Zak,

I gather from your numerous remarks that you are not a fan of Werner Voss, and that is Ok with me. I have a few British aces that I am not extremely fond of either, for instance "Collishaw", a hero of yours I believe.

Even Ginger has a bone about Voss - but he at least - has class, not crass, as I read from your remarks.

I can not imagine someone condemning all 194 pages of a book on Werner Voss, due to one picture of Voss walking in town with the Crown Prince, and you focus in on the remarks by Barry of a black/dark cloth tied around a door knob signifying someone had passed.

It is just a picture and I’ll wager a Gentleman’s bet, that you could most probably find picture errors in thousands of other books as well. For God sake – grow up!!!

I agree with Alex: please point out all of the error's in the book, so that we may all share in your knowledge.

I thank you for this indulgence.

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. I would like to apologies for my rudeness on this blog, it is so unsportsmanlike.

P.S.S. I am a fan of Voss and many other WW1 Aces on both sides of the line

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by ZAK;

Alex,

with his " Oh, if only I could have brought him down alive" Rhys Davids is in the annals and it is absolut correct to proof his comment. And we are not the last one.

Once again ZAK, I'm struggling to understand what you're saying...If English isn't your first language then please, take a little more time over your posts.

Originally Posted by ZAK;

You like a fault by Barry Diggens? (it's more from the funny side and I hope not to open the Pandora's Box)

"Notice the closed curtains and black ribbon on the door handle of No. 66, denoting a death in the family."

The black ribbon is a fault in the print, but symptomatic for the handling of facts (or the absence) by the author.

ZAK.

I'll bet you've been scrutinising that book all day...Is that really the best you can come up with?

Originally Posted by ZAK;

PS A gentle reminder: before discussing the Voss episode furthermore please read Niall Ferguson: The Pity of War, chapter 12.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but what exactly is the gist of chapter 12 of The Pity Of War?

Regards.

Bucky.

[Roadhog]

Dear Gang, This has been a great thread. When and if I live to finish my book on WWI many of you will hear your thoughts and opinions echoed there. I will also give credit to you all whenever possible.

Anyway I have just one more last thought on this matter before I get ready for heart surgery on Monday Both times when MvR was wounded, he immediately dropped out of combat and flew as straight as possible until he was able to crash-land. After reading all of the reports, I truly think that Voss had been hit and was trying to get away when he was killed. Being out of gas or extremely low on fuel was a critical contributing factor in his death.

If he was conscious, he possibly did turn off his engine. I believe that MvR did this in April 1918, and he was mortally wounded with masssive internal injuries. This would have been almost instinctual on a veteran pilot. Personally I still believe that he could have run out of gas and that ole Rhys nailed him before he had a chance to react.

Anyway like you said, it has been almost 80 years so you pay your money and take your pick. Who is to say who is right or wrong at this point. Anyway guys thanks for all of the fun, I'll let you know how things turn out on Monday. VR, Roadhog a.k.a. Scott Price

On a personnal note, I too have been to my fair share of plane crashes with baggies. I think the largest piece of a crewman I ever found was a foot laced up in a leather boot. It gives you pause to think about the fragility of life and the enormity of eternity.

[Ginger.]

Here's hoping this thread doesn't wind up in a slanging match as even the 'Mad Major's enjoying a good yarn well retold.

I hope ZAK can back up his niggles about 'September Evening' with a bit of new research, that would be great. As regards 'Niall Ferguson: The Pity of War, chapter 12.', come on ZAK, let's be having the gist it!
There's nowt worse than dangling a morsel and making out as if those that haven't already nibbled are missing the geat secret.

[crankcase]

Sincerely
Crankcase

This is my last correction to Barry Diggens, in respect to the Voss family :

"The teenage Margrit Rose is top left, separated from her her older sister Katherine..."

In fact this is Martha Lans with her daughter Anneliese. The "Voss sisters" is pure phantasy - or bad research.

ZAK

[Ginger.]

Thanks for that ZAK, I was going to buy that book, not sure if it's worth it after that revelation.
Any chance of a bit more on 'Niall Ferguson: The Pity of War, chapter 12.'?

[NeilE]

Ah yes, Major Ginger......chapter 12 (Sounds of gothic door opening, creaking rusted hinges)

After the entreaties about Chapter 12 of Niall Ferguson's rather dry tome on World War One, "The Pity of War", I decided to pull my copy off the shelves and reacquaint myself with the said chapter.

First let be said that Ferguson is not my favourite WW1 historian. He has a tendency to cleverness, and whilst he makes some interesting points, at the end of it, you think, "Well, is that all after 624 pages?".

The below is a skim re-read summary:

Chapter 12 is a good case in point. Its titled "The Death Instinct: Why Men Fought". Here he looks at why men put up with the appalling conditions, butchered battles etc etc. Most of it is pretty obvious. He discounts active patriotism after 1914, but believes most men agreed with their country's war aims. He dissects morale into its elements but misses some obvious points about its limitations in battle. Talks about junior officers allegiance to their men. Talks about the importance of grog and cigarettes, mentions group identity in Scots and Irish Regiments, mistakenly refers to most Australian troops as being British born (), talks about revenge as a motivating factor, gets caught up in a rather silly discussion of Freud, Eros and Thanatos, and the "joy of battle", glosses over survival instincts and reflex actions, mistakes dissociation for exaltation and then comes to the conclusion that it was probably all of those reasons in different blokes. In his desire to wrap it all up neatly in 28 pages, he misses a number of important points about circumstances and situation, survival motivations, disassociation and trauma, and other factors also. Also selectively quotes Junger, Graves, and Sassoon and other popular memoirs a lot to prove his points. A typical Ferguson mish mash really.

Also there is not a word in that chapter that relates directly to the war in the air either.

I'm not sure how Ferguson's discussion of motivation to continue fighting relates to Zak's cryptic utterance of "Ferguson, Chapter 12". But somewhere in there he must detect some reasons why the historically entwined Voss and Rhys-Davids did what they did.

If Zak is looking for motivations for the actors in the combat, my view is they did what they did because they were in active combat and fighting is what you did then unless you wanted to die. I find the role of the fighter pilot somewhat different to other air roles and that of the ground troops in most cases because their job was to actively seek and consummate combat. Regular avoidance wasn't an option - unless you wanted to be transferred out - or end up being picked off by a more aggressive enemy. It was also the only part of the war (apart from submarine warfare perhaps) where the individuals and their organisations kept score of how many of the enemy you knocked off. The infantry arms never did this (except for a handful of celebrated snipers on both sides). This also served, for some pilots, as a reinforcement of their aggressive role.

Much is being made in certain quarter of Rhys-Davids regretful post combat comments but that is a very typical reaction post combat. Brown felt similar emotions after the Richthofen episode, and it was a common reaction amongst infantrymen after intense hand to hand combat also.

Anyway that's enough from me.... I'm off!

Cheers

Neil

[Immo_Frese]

ZAK, when you mentioned chapter 12, do you mean the english or the german edition of Fergusons "The pity of war" ?

Immo

Immo and all the others,

it's my fault, sorry. I have only the German edition and must notice now, that it was abridged?

I mean the chapter of "capitulation and captivity".

Thank you, Immo.

ZAK