Voss Ran out of Bullets

[Reinout]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

It seems that different aircraft could store different amounts. Previously we spoke about Voss' F.I at 500 per gun. Looks like the Bristol Fighter F.2b Vickers had a storage for about 1200 rounds for just one gun.

William Frederick James "Jim" Harvey RFC / RAF 22 Sqn : "For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. During one night he made five consecutive raids over the enemy's lines, during which period he dropped over half a ton weight of bombs on his four objectives. In addition he fired during these raids 1,150 rounds of ammunition from a height varying from 100 to 500 feet on hostile infantry and transport. He has proved himself to be a consistently good observer, and has performed much successful night-bombing." MC citation, Supplement to the London Gazette, 22 June 1918..."

Hi Stephen,

From the above quote I gather that mr. Harvey fired 1,150 rounds in the course of not one but five raids, averaging some 230 rounds per raid, ergo this citation cannot stand as evidence for having over a 1,000 rounds per gun. I seriously doubt the F2b carried half a ton of bombs per mission either. The citation simply gives totals of the five raids, meaning about a 100 kilograms of explosives.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Roadhog

. . . . right at the end, he ceased maneuvering and flew more-or-less straight. That tells me that either he was wounded or running out of petrol. Comments? VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."

I agree; a likely scenario.

[Taz]

Roadhog- The Fokker Dr.I had a very low wing loading and could have turned very well even with the engine out (read Udet's description of MvR deadsticking a DR.I after he thought his propeller was damaged). If able, Voss could have avoided the S.E.5a aircraft while making descending turns for an emergency landing. Your second premise is most likely correct. Voss was wounded, turned off the magneto switch to prevent a fire on crash landing, and was dead or dying when Rhys Davids fired his last rounds.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[zoomzoom]

Hehe, 10 to 1 odds are the "wrong boys" to run into, no matter
who they are. All I can say is Voss was one bad son of a gun.

ZZ.

[Taz]

Since we are discussing the Voss engagement, I think it is important to mention the fact that during the Voss engagement, the 56 Sq contingent were not quite as experienced as most people believe. By nightfall of 23 September McCudden had only 8 destroyed victories and 5 out-of controls, Rhys Davids had 7 destroyed or captured and 13 OOC, Muspratt had 3 destroyed or captured and 3 OOC, Hoidge had 5 destroyed and 17 OOC, Bowman had 8 destroyed and 8 OOC, Maybery had 9 destroyed and 4 OOC, and Cronyn never became an ace. From before McCudden's flight showed up on 23 September, Chidlaw-Roberts had 3 destroyed and 2 OOC and Hamersley later became an ace but had 1 destroyed and 1 OOC prior to the engagement.

This is a pretty experienced bunch, but this is not the hugely experienced McCudden of the future who would really get angry if any of the ships in his flight took hits. If you look only at destroyed and captured victories, Voss actually had more than the whole lot together.

Still, by comparison to any other unit somebody was unlucky enough to tackle, with the possible exception of Jasta 11 and Jasta B, they were the top of the food chain. They were certainly experienced enough to take out Voss given the heavy odds and the fact they were flying one of the latest RFC fighters.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Ginger.]

Was it accepted Hun tactical doctrine to crash and kill yourself when you run out of bullets?

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by Reinout

Hi Stephen,

From the above quote I gather that mr. Harvey fired 1,150 rounds in the course of not one but five raids, averaging some 230 rounds per raid, ergo this citation cannot stand as evidence for having over a 1,000 rounds per gun. I seriously doubt the F2b carried half a ton of bombs per mission either. The citation simply gives totals of the five raids, meaning about a 100 kilograms of explosives.

Kind regards,

Reinout

Reinout! Thanks for catching my little joke. The citation is true but I was just wondering if anyone was really reading it.

[tcrean7828]

Hi Ginger,

Never met, but glad to make your acquaintance on line and was wondering when I would get a rise out of you concerning the "Hun Devil" Voss. To answer your question, it wasn't but according to Doolittle - it was practiced in WW2. Now back to the premise:

Voss' crash as witnessed by Lt. Bowman and as he recalled “When near the ground the triplane turned over on its back seconds before the aircraft ploughed into the ground in an inverted position. At no time was the angle of descent steeper than an ordinary glide-in to land.” and also there was a pseudo "prelim in the field post mortem" of Voss' body that indicated that he had 3 bullets in him.
(1) Bullet entered through the Right Hand Side of his Chest and exited behind the Top of his Left Shoulder. Note: I am told that this type of wound is consistent with being shot from low on the starboard flank and (2) Bullets entered the lower part of the back and exited through the stomach. Note: I am also reminded that this type of wound is consistent with being shot from almost directly behind.

Also consider that “as pointed out above” his triplane turned over on its back, prior to crashing, thus trashing the prop, cowling, engine, machine guns, upper, middle wing, frame, etc. at an entrenched position/gun emplacement known to the British as ‘Plum Farm’, half a mile north (or three quarters of a mile northwest) of Frezenberg village, Belgium.
With further reading on the flight characteristics’ of the F.I 103/17 and DR-1 were touchy. As it has been pointed out in past threads here on the Aerodrome that “complete loss of control on landing was not unusual…for young and inexperienced pilots…it required constant control input and skill to avoid hideous consequences…it could turn so fast and tight that it seemed to be trying to bite it own tail and many an Allied fighter fell out of the sky trying to follow its maneuvers…and to top it off, all controls are ineffective at low speed, the fighter will surely roll itself into a ball if left to its own devices.”

I believe that Voss was moments away from death when he came in for his landing and at the last second, when he died, he relinquished all control of the Fokker to the elements, causing his aircraft to land in the manor that it did.

And do the COMMENTS continue:

[tcrean7828]

Hi,

And adding to TAZ' comments:

Any guesses as to how many rounds, from 56 Squadron, were fired at Werner Voss during the 10 minute dog fight?

Hints:
-- Lt. Bowman fired about 10 rounds Vickers and 50 Lewis. Both gun stopped. Note: Stoppages: Vickers Gun: Chute Blocked by empty cases; Lewis Gun: An ill fitting drum which caused bad loading.
-- Lt. Mayberyburst from both guns, fired with both guns but Lewis stopped, separate burst at the triplane with Vickers gun. Note: Stoppages:Vickers Gun: No.4, Lewis Gun: Handle just above safety catch stopped.
-- Lt. Hoidge fired about 150 rounds Vickers and ½ drum Lewis.
-- Capt MCudden engaged triplane.
-- Lt.Rhys Davids got in several good bursts; twice placed a new Lewis drum on my gun, whole Lewis drum and a corresponding number of Vickers, got one shot out of my Vickers, reloaded, got another good burst into him.

Comments?

[Barker]

Originally Posted by Ginger.

Was it accepted Hun tactical doctrine to crash and kill yourself when you run out of bullets?

I learned more from just this one post than all the other ones on this august forum.