Voss Ran out of Bullets

Lt. Werner Voss was trying to land (out of fuel, or wounded, or both), when he was shot down in cold blood. He was on the British side and GLIDING WEST, deeper into the British side. His engine was off and the glide was stable.

McCudden: "(Voss) was very low, still being engaged by an SE marked I , the pilot Rhys Davids."

Rhys Davids, who had noticed the dead engine of Voss, had time enough to reload after a first attempt.

ZAK

[Sreiko]

This topic has few of very interesting views and details. From my point of view it is clearer that Voss is not run out of ammunition but was in distress situation. If the statement of the ammunition storage of 500 rounds per gun is correct this simply mean that this plane could made long time of firing. I am not sure but this machine gun has some ratio of 500 to 600 bullets in minute. When used synchronization mechanism this rate double down and both machine gun have rate as one with no mechanism. So this give total endurance of almost two minute of constant burst fire!!

Also Voss was experienced in fight as well on the same Fokker fighter and as the entire fighter expert he is for sure used short burst. First lesson all of them learn is to save ammunition. Not one pilot has been killed because of waste of ammunition. Voss was master fighter pilot for sure.

As the tcrean7828 said one shoot has penetrate his chest and one hand. One of this hit is the reason why he had try to land and flew in strait direction. Nobody flew in strait direction in fight – so Voss was in desperate situation. Another hit is fatal and that’s why plane was inverted and hit ground. This does not mean that he had kill from this shoot, but for sure that was of moment of the limited vision, ability and even maybe pain disappeared. In the martial art it is know as “tunnel vision”.

Flying the Fokker Triplane fighter under this condition is almost heroism. In the engineer terminology Dr.I had “low reserve of stability”. This does not mean unstable. As the Mustang or Sopwith Camel, this plane require full control on stick- no relax. This give one advantage- plane reacts swiftly on any touch on controls and they are very maneuverable warplanes and bitter enemy in dog fight. Penalty- not very suitable for long ferry flight, pilots is very tired and reduced combat capabilities, and plane could not be very good for non experienced pilots. That’s why is Dr.I some very unpleasant to fly at low speed and this is the landing speed in general as well nobody fly slow in combat.

If we took that details, Voss has done great thing while under wounds, maybe close to collapse due to blood loss, he was managed to fly this plane and attempting to land. For sure he was a great aviator.

Back in the reality of that day- Antante has for sure score one great victory that day. Enemy down.

[Nieuport28]

The '56 Squadron' version of the death of Voss is, I'd offer, most disconcerting Some discrepancies are most evident and the 'power of recall' of several members involved in the scrap are certainly in their conflicting testimony, most questionable:

Evan Hadingham, (now Science Editor of "NOVA') wrote 'Fighting Triplanes' in 1962 and offers that, for example, Voss was described by Rhys David as flying a 'inline' engined aircraft with four guns mounted. R D did not see any crash, he said~ and he was not credited originally with the victory~ but it was, rather, credited in the typewritten report, to Hoidge. The report was later annotated, in an informal manner, to indicate that R D was the victor' McCudden said that Voss was downed on the German side of the lines; Voss came down on the British lines. Hoidge says that he thinks that McCudden had departed the fray before V. went down~ and wouldn't have seen the Triplane hit in the 'Plum Farm' locale. Unfortunately, the fact that other British squadrons/aviators might have been involved in Voss' death, was not known to EH.

If any have further interest in this material please look up recent 'Collishaw' threads here on 'The Aerodrome' and there you'll see "Tell me about Raymond Collishaw'..There is an entry at that 'thread' where I've related more of the odd circumstances surrounding this incident~ It's offered primarily in defense of Collishaw who was defamed by those not welcoming his message as bought back from Germany in his later years~ which suggested that Voss did not crash from 56 squadron action but possibly, according to German sources, as the result of a slightly later encounter with a/c other than from 56~

This 'alternate theory', valid or not, is something that deserves inclusion in any historical account of the death of Voss~ I don't support that a definite conclusion should be made denying the validity of the '56 version' of the fray, but I find it puzzling that some British aviators,other than those of '56'~ their roles and the recollection of their squadron mates ('32 Squadron', for one)~ who might have been involved in this 'alternate theory' of the activity concerning the 'downing of Voss'~ (and could have possibly refuted the 'alternate theory')~ were not conclusively interviewed by writers on this subject at the time the issue arouse nearly some 60 years ago~ a time when many of the questions could have been answered by the many, many flyers readily available for querying~ and then still only in their mid-60's.

[alex_revell]

Nieuport 28,
Please not that old chestnut again! I wasted so many hours, checking out Collishaw's various crackpot theories at the PRO. All pointless, and fuelled by Collishaw's well known hatred of the RFC and McCudden in particular. Incidently, where did this PM report on Voss' body come from. The report from the Lt Keegan who buried him merely said that he was buried where he fell. Plum Farm was very close to the fighting and anyway, why would it be felt necessary to carry out a PM on what was, in effect, just one more dead airman.
Alex

[Reinout]

Reinout! Thanks for catching my little joke. The citation is true but I was just wondering if anyone was really reading it.

Do I get a cookie now?!

But seriously, this thread is intensely interesting!

Why did Collishaw hate the RFC and McCudden in particular? I'm no expert on Allied aces, but this really fascinates me.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Alex Revell:
It had never accord to me until I read yor post that Collishaw had hated Mannock. I had met Mr. Collishaw in the mid 1970s when my wife and I were in Vancouver,B.C. We took the ferry to Nanimo and had a short 2 hour visit with him. In the course of the conversion he berated Mannock, " We know who was doing what!" adding, "He never got more than 50 victories!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Taz]

Dan-San- McCudden, not Mannock.

Alex- If I remember correctly, Hadingham was drug through the coals so much because he listened to Collishaw that he more or less swore off WW-I aviation. When Triplanes was written by teenager Hadingham, there were still plenty of WW-I pilots left to raise quite a stink. A real shame, since even as a teenager, he was a thorough researcher and excellent writer.

Taz
Terry Phillips

[Ginger.]

tcrean7828,
likewise about making your acquaintance.
A thread about the Hun Lover's bestest loved dynamic dwarf always gets me in the end.... try as I might to be a better person.

How to research

http://www.newenglandfilm.com/news/a...researcher.htm

ZAK

[Southside Bucky]

Originally Posted by ZAK;

Lt. Werner Voss was trying to land (out of fuel, or wounded, or both), when he was shot down in cold blood.

ZAK

Voss knew all about trying to kill in cold blood.

All the alternate scenario's relating to Voss' death and the "fairness" of it, have one thing in common: They're all based on speculation and conjecture.

What is'nt in doubt though, is the fact that he strafed defenceless opponents on at least two occasions (his victory No.s; 19 and 33), after he'd brought them down.

Not quite the noble warrior some would have us believe him to have been.

Regards.

Bucky.