Günther DERLIN

[frontflieger]

Hello,

Lt. d. R. Derlin was a member of Jasta 20 when he died, wasn't he?

Thorsten

[Immo_Frese]

Hi Thorsten,

yes, I have him as Mick Mannocks 23. victim. He claimed a Fokker Dr.I on 6 May 1918 at 9.20 a.m. over Gheluvelt.

Immo

[Gregvan]

Hi Thorsten and Immo,

Yes, Ltn.d.R. Günther Derlin was killed on 6 May 1918 as a member of Jasta 20, as Immo says - Rick Duiven's Jasta files have him killed over Ploegsteert Wood. I know that many authorities (such as the Grub Street authors) have Derlin as the pilot of the Fokker Dr.I claimed by Mannock (over Gheluvelt) on 6 May 1918 for his 23rd victory.

While I do NOT doubt that Mannock was credited with a Dr.I on 6 May, and that Derlin died on that same day, I do wonder if Derlin was really likely to have been flying a Fokker Dr.I on 6 May 1918. At that time, the Fokker Triplanes were still basically top of the line fighters and were mostly employed by the top-priority Jagdgeschwader Staffeln. There were a few exceptions to be found in other units (like Jacobs' Triplane in Jasta 7, and a few Jasta 14 Dr.Is), I have never seen any information to show that Jasta 20 had any triplanes on strength at this time (or, indeed, any time later). If I'm not mistaken, Jasta 20 was at Rumbeke in the 4. Armee at this date, and was part of Jagdgruppe 3 (Jasta 20, 33, 40, 49, 57 and 58). As far as I know, the most likely equipment being used by Jasta 20 on 6 May 1918 consisted of the Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa and perhaps a few Albatros types. Of course, I could be wrong.

We do know, for instance, that on 17 March 1918 Vzfw. Otto Schulz of Jasta 20 was killed in a crash of a Pfalz D.III near Douai (according to Rick's data). On 11 June 1918, apparently, Gefreiter Kleineberg of Jasta 20 was interned in Holland after landing a Pfalz D.IIIa at Schoondijke, Zeeland. On 12 June 1918, Ltn d R Hubert Helten of the Jasta was shot down and killed, apparently by McCloughry of No 4 Squadron Australian Flying Corps, and the Australians reported fighting a mixed formation of nine Albatros and Pfalz scouts. In the same fight, Lt W S Martin of No 4 Sqn was shot down by a Pfalz (almost certainly flown by Ltn Raven Freiherr von Barnekow of Jasta 20). On 15 June 1918, von Barnekow's Pfalz D.IIIa was accidentally fired upon by Jacobs of Jasta 7. Thus there is plenty of evidence that Jasta 20 had Pfalz fighters and perhaps some Albatrosse as well - but no Fokker Triplanes.

I believe that Derlin was a relative newcomer to the Jasta, with no victories, when he was shot down and killed on 6 May 1918. If Jasta 20 had somehow managed to obtain one or more Fokker Triplanes as early as 6 May, would the relative novice Derlin have been assigned such a high-priorty machine?

To repeat - I am NOT doubting that Mannock encountered and shot down a Fokker Triplane on 6 May 1918 (I'm wary of Ginger's wrath). I am merely raising my suspicion that his victim was Derlin. I would imagine there are probably other claims for an Albatros or Pfalz on this date by other RAF pilots that might fit better for Derlin, but I don't have access to that information.

Just an honest inquiry.

Greg VanWyngarden

[Gregvan]

Hi,

OK, found a bit more info. In Alex Revell's superb "British Single-Seater Fighter Squadrons on the Western Front in WWI", page 258, in describing the actions of 6 May 1918, he says: "Mannock's patrol were in combat with Fokker Triplanes over Gheluvelt at 9.20 am and Mannock shot down Ltn Derlin of Jasta 20 who crashed in Ploegsteert Wood and was killed."

Though I am loathe to contradict the superb research of my respected friend Alex, I still wonder if this Dr.I was flown by Derlin. Since Mannock's 74 Sqn was in combat with Fokker Triplanes (note - plural), then I doubt that these Tripes came from Jasta 20. As noted, there is documentary evidence that Jasta 20 was mostly equipped with Pfalz Scouts both prior to, and after, 6 May 1918. It is, of course, entirely possible that 74 was in combat with Fokker Triplanes (perhaps from JG III) and some Pfalz and/or Albatros pilots from Jasta 20 wandered into the fight as well, and perhaps Mannock was a bit confused in his claiming and actually shot down a Pfalz or Albatros when his report claimed a Dr.I (I can see the smoke coming out of Ginger's ears now...).

Only two days later, on 8 May, No 74 Sqdn again encountered Fokker Triplanes - this time we know they were from Jasta 26, of Jagdgeschwader III - and this time B Flight got the worst of it. Two SE5a's were shot down in flames, one forced to land in British lines, and another was badly shot up. This has been matched with the claims of Jasta 26 pilots Fritz Loerzer, Buder, Classen and Lange, and we know that Jasta 26 had Triplanes at this time.

I shall now run for cover.

Greg

[Immo_Frese]

Greg,

your arguments are very convincing. According to the RAF Communiqué No 6 the weather on 6 May was bad and german aircraft activity was very poor in the morning. So I think there weren't too much claims made by british pilots that morning in Flanders. The Communiqué lists 3 claims for triplanes by pilots of 74.Sqdn. RAF and one EA Scout by a crew of 2.Sqdn.RAF...so this is perhaps a question for Graeme.

The bad thing is, that the germans did not note the exact time for Derlins loss...

Immo

Lt.d.R. Günther Derlin, Jasta 20, was killed in a Pfalz D IIIa.

ZAK

[Immo_Frese]

Originally Posted by ZAK

Lt.d.R. Günther Derlin, Jasta 20, was killed in a Pfalz D IIIa.

ZAK

ZAK,

do you by chance have a time for Derlins loss?

Immo

[Gregvan]

Hi,

Yes, thanks for that information, ZAK. It confirms what I already suspected. Like Immo, I'd be interested in a specific time for Derlin's loss, as well as any other info you might have. Might I ask where this information came from? Just curious, mind you, as I'm always on the lookout for more sources of information about the Jagdstaffeln.

Thanks again.

Greg

[frontflieger]

Hello to all,

thank you so far for your information. I am searching for all information about Jasta 20 in the period April untill july 1918. e. g. the losses.

Thorsten

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Frontflieger:
Listing Jasta 20 losses:
April 1918; none.
May 1918;
6 May 1818, Ltn. Günther Derlin, Over Ploegsteert Wood,
Pfalz D.IIIa.
31 May 1918, Ltn. ? Buchholz, WIA, to hospital.
11 June 1918, Gefr. Heinz Kleineberg, shot down, POW.
Pfalz D.IIIa 1306/18.
12 June 1918, Ltn. Hubert Helten, KIA over Bailleul,
Pfalz D.IIIa.
18 June 1918, Gefr. Gustav Reuter, KIC on Menin Airfield.
26 June 1918, Ltn. ? von Decker, WIA stays in Jasta 20.
13 July 1918, Ltn. ? von Decker, severely WIA to Hospital.
13 July 1918, Flg. ? Tollmann, severely WIA to Hospital.
22 July 1918, Vzfw. Emil Soltau, KIA over Gheluveld.
Blue skies,
Dan-San