Did Manfred......

31 March 2007, 07:11 PM

have trouble scoring kills towards the end? Did enemy pilots steer clear of him?I would think that being the legend he was most pilots would "run away" rather than engage him.

SCMc · 31 March 2007, 10:13 PM

tdpatt,

According to MvR's victory list, he scored 17 victories from March 12 to April 20, 1918. It did not appear that he was having too much trouble.

Steve

Ginger. · 31 March 2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdpatt

have trouble scoring kills towards the end? Did enemy pilots steer clear of him?I would think that being the legend he was most pilots would "run away" rather than engage him.

The short answer is yes, the entire RFC "ran away" toward Blighty at the very sight of his Blood Red Fokker.

Oops! Look at the date, I should have said the entire RAF....it's also All Fools Day and you get my vote as the biggest.

rammjaeger · 1 April 2007, 12:57 AM

Code:

To honour the biggest of all fools All Fools Day was renamed Ginger´s Day.

Ginger. · 1 April 2007, 02:38 AM

There's no such thing as bad publicity!

REDBARONGIRL · 1 April 2007, 04:38 AM

HELLO tdatt, I just read what you said about MVR, i think that he probally had alittle trouble considering that he was wounded,his head injury gave him alot of trouble,and he probally had a hard time keeping fociced on his targets,Most of the allied planes where scared of him because he was the best that GERMANY had!Of course, the higher ups could of and should of orderd him not to fly anymore, he had what is known now as combat stress syndrome,he was very tired,he had pounding headaches,and they should of ordered him to stop,and sent him home for awhille,yes, it would of made him mad as hell. But orders are orders!!! REDBARONGIRL

OvS · 1 April 2007, 04:18 PM

I agree, I'm positive it effected him. Think about it. he was recovering from an injury that was pretty much described as having the side of his skull ripped open, although not broken. So the wound was deep and unable to heal properly. Toss him in a highly manueverable Dr.1, at altitude with a tight helmet on and let his head flop all over the place as it would in combat, and I'm sure there would be reason to believe the injury effected him. Hypoxia, stress, and fatigue from combat does not mix well with massive injuires.

Think of how long it takes the average NHL player, or NFL player to completely recover from a massive head trauma injury, and these guys are in top physical condition. It usually costs them a season, or most of it. I'm sure MvR wasn't a top athelte (a great hunter, but no athlete), so he was in no better physical shape than you or I, just young. Normally an injury to the brain is severe enough to incapacitate the average person for weeks, if not longer. His brain was probably swollen or swelling during combat, and never had a chance to recover.

I doubt he ever fully recovered from the injury and was driven by sheer desire to server in honor. It cost him his life, but he was young and youth feels no pain.

OvS

FliegerJG1 · 1 April 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OvS

I'm sure MvR wasn't a top athelte (a great hunter, but no athlete), so he was in no better physical shape than you or I, just young. OvS

Hi,
Manfred was actually an EXCELLENT athlete. In cadet school, he won prizes for gynmastics. As a young adult, he was very competitive in horsemanship. He probably would have entered Olympic competition if the war had not intervened. In general, he was health conscious making sure he was well rested for flight duties and he drank and smoked moderately. He also understood the value of good nutrition as he did his best to ensure that his men had adequate meals.

As noted already, Manfred was very competitive and he drove himself quite hard. I would guess that this element of his character enabled him to cope with the side effects of his injury. Remember that he had a very strong will that enabled him to regain consciousness AND effect a safe landing of his plane after receiving the head wound. Manfred was asked why he continued to fly and he stated that he would consider himself a despicable character if he were to simply rest on his laurels. Flying was a matter of honor and leadership to him.

Very Best Regards,

FliegerJG1

OvS · 1 April 2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FliegerJG1

Hi,
Manfred was actually an EXCELLENT athlete. In cadet school, he won prizes for gynmastics. As a young adult, he was very competitive in horsemanship. He probably would have entered Olympic competition if the war had not intervened. In general, he was health conscious making sure he was well rested for flight duties and he drank and smoked moderately. He also understood the value of good nutrition as he did his best to ensure that his men had adequate meals.

FliegerJG1

I read The Red Baron, as many have, and I don't remember reading anything about any physical activity during the war, other than his hunting. I too was in top physical shape in my youth at 16-19. Played Football, wrestled, Lacrosse. The effects lasted some 10 years for me, and still a little now at 37... but... I wasn't strapped to a seat in a plane traveling at 100+ MPH at hypoxia altitude, in freezing weather, all the while pushing myself forward to compensate for the head pulling my head back... not to forget the stress of having to fly in very close combat in machines that could fall from the sky at any moment. Hence why

Oswald Boelcke looked about 45 years old,

Werner Voss, about 50 and when Manny died, about 40. So regardless of what physical activity he may have done prior to becoming a flying punching bag, it wore off.

As one of the pilots at Rhinebeck who used to fly the Albatros D.Va once wrote... you return from flying one of these old birds with the feeling as if someone beat you with a baseball bat. And that's not including the stress of air combat. I felt this now and then, when I used to ride my motorcyle. I never had a windshield and would ride about 80MPH up the NY Turnpike. By the time I got to Lake George from Long Island... I could not stand up, walk or anything, I just wanted to sleep. And that was only 6 hours, in 1 day. I can't imagine what years of that, twice a day, with all the other elements I am omitting must do to the human body.

Manny should never have been flying, and his pride, as would anyone myself included, stood in the way of having him recover safely and possibly survive the war.

My guess, is he was 'out-of-it' chasing May purely on adreneline, trying to get that kill, sensing the confused mind of an inexperiance pilot. He just got caught up in the chase, and lost focus on the rules of combat. It was ground fire that killed him anyway, proving he was way to low, and too focused on May... tunnel vision maybe?

We'll never know.... "Kaput!"

OvS

Roadhog · 1 April 2007, 10:21 PM

No sir, combative German flyers never seemed to lack for Englishmen and other Allied pilots to engage. Due to the RFC's policy of continuing to press the initiative at all costs, there was a steady supply of cannon fodder crossing the front lines for the Germans to engage. Like Wellington said of Napoleon's men at Waterloo, "They came on in the same old way and were beaten in the same old way..."

Although it must be said that despite the staggering losses they sustained, that the RFC, and later, the RAF, managed to pull out a win, right Ginger? See buddy I'm not a total Hun lover, although I must admit that their women do clean up right nice.

VR, Roadhog "Memento mori."