A correction re: Ernst Udet

[Fallschirmjager]

The statement that Udet "...got in trouble with the Gestapo and committed suicide" in the posted bio is incorrect. He ran afoul of his boss and fellow WW I aviator, Hermann Goering. As the top-surviving German ace of the War, Udet was a national hero, and Goering harbored a long-running jealousy of his fame. When Goering found himself as chief of the Luftwaffe,
as well as Reichsmarschall, Udet become something of a whipping boy for him, despite Udet's outstanding organizational work with the fledgling Luftwaffe (it was Udet who actually negotiated with the Soviet Union officials to allow the pre-war Luftwaffe to train in Soviet Russia away from the eyes of the WW I Allies and the League of Nations). Following the failure in the Battle of Britain, as well as other mistakes such as Udet's indifference to the
development of jet aircraft, Goering laid the blame solely at Udet's feet.
Despondent, Udet took his own life.

Fallschirmjager

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

The statement that Udet "...got in trouble with the Gestapo and committed suicide" in the posted bio is incorrect. He ran afoul of his boss and fellow WW I aviator, Hermann Goering. As the top-surviving German ace of the War, Udet was a national hero, and Goering harbored a long-running jealousy of his fame. When Goering found himself as chief of the Luftwaffe,
as well as Reichsmarschall, Udet become something of a whipping boy for him, despite Udet's outstanding organizational work with the fledgling Luftwaffe (it was Udet who actually negotiated with the Soviet Union officials to allow the pre-war Luftwaffe to train in Soviet Russia away from the eyes of the WW I Allies and the League of Nations). Following the failure in the Battle of Britain, as well as other mistakes such as Udet's indifference to the
development of jet aircraft, Goering laid the blame solely at Udet's feet.
Despondent, Udet took his own life.

Fallschirmjager

Fallschirmjager,
Sorry to jump on your thread, but you are absolutly right in the way that Goering used people to his and his alone's advantage. Not only was Goering jealous of Udet's accomplishments in WW1, but from what I have read, it would have been the same for MvR or Voss had they survived. Goering always seemd to have an eye on the laurals bestoed upon someone else, and wished they were bestoed on him.
How he got the PLM after 16 kills instead of the normal 20 still burns me. And his total of 22 was at the low end of the stick.
My step-mothers cousion who was German Ace - Fritz Höhn never even received his PLM even though he was at 21 victories. He an 5 others were waiting for the paperwork to be signed at HQ for it to be awarded. He was KIA before that came about.

cul

tcrean7828

tom

-------------- Sorry for jumpin on your thread ---------------------

[Fallschirmjager]

...after all, that's what these threads are for---spirited discussion. Goering
was a fascinating, albeit appalling, human being. The reason for not only his
accelerated PLM, but also his assumption of command of Jasta Richtofen, had
as much to do with money and politics as skill. There is no disputing his
skill as a combat pilot. Like von Richtofen, he grew up in wealth and society,
was an avid outdoorsman and hunter (thus an excellent marksman). His
jealousy, though, of position also sprung from youth. Though wealthy, his family lacked the "von" which defined Wilhelmine Germany's upper class.He resented this as a youth, and always strove to be more than simply "bourgeoisie" in the eyes of aristocratic boys by taking the greater risks. His
family and their connections aided in the greasing the wheels for his Max and
subsequent promotions. Post-war, he married into even greater wealth (his wife, Karin, died in the mid-30's) and used this to gain power within the Nazi
Party by bankrolling much of Hitler's political ambitions right up to his election as Chancellor. Goering also came up with the idea of the camps, and
freely admitted this during the Nuremberg Trials. He was possessed of a great amount of charm (most evil does), and in the end talked his personal
prison guard into bringing him a personal kitbag from the storage locker...
which contained a cyanide capsule so he could cheat the gallows.

Fallschirmjager

[gipsymoth236k]

Is it true that he had hid this cyanide capsule in his rectum for use, if and when, for the time needed?

-Gary Sewall

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

...after all, that's what these threads are for---spirited discussion. Goering
was a fascinating, albeit appalling, human being. The reason for not only his
accelerated PLM, but also his assumption of command of Jasta Richtofen, had
as much to do with money and politics as skill. There is no disputing his
skill as a combat pilot. Like von Richtofen, he grew up in wealth and society,
was an avid outdoorsman and hunter (thus an excellent marksman). His
jealousy, though, of position also sprung from youth. Though wealthy, his family lacked the "von" which defined Wilhelmine Germany's upper class.He resented this as a youth, and always strove to be more than simply "bourgeoisie" in the eyes of aristocratic boys by taking the greater risks. His
family and their connections aided in the greasing the wheels for his Max and
subsequent promotions. Post-war, he married into even greater wealth (his wife, Karin, died in the mid-30's) and used this to gain power within the Nazi
Party by bankrolling much of Hitler's political ambitions right up to his election as Chancellor. Goering also came up with the idea of the camps, and
freely admitted this during the Nuremberg Trials. He was possessed of a great amount of charm (most evil does), and in the end talked his personal
prison guard into bringing him a personal kitbag from the storage locker...
which contained a cyanide capsule so he could cheat the gallows.

Fallschirmjager

Fallschirmjager,

As fighter pilots go, I would have to throw my hat into the pool and say - he was an OK fighter pilot. He was definately not a fast burner.

That is, if you don't throw in the Jewish element that constantely saved his bacon from the fire, time and time again.

Who was this mysterious man, why it was Ltn.d.R Friedrich Rüdenberg. Goering hated this group of people so much, that he constantly taunted Friedrich Rüdenberg out in public to a point that Rüdenberg asked for reassignment to another Jasta. You would figure that he would have kept his trap shut as to Ltn. Rüdenberg religious beliefs, as he was saved on more than one occasion from being smoked from the sky. Apparently this hate continued on into WW2 and history.

From Nov 1915 - July when he was wounded on 16 Jul 1917, he had only scored 9 victories, I think. I also think that is the time where he picked up his little (gets bigger) habit from.

Goering's only saving grace was when Rüdenberg tried to leave Germany in the early years when Uncle Adolph got into power, after being prompted by a close friend, he apparently whispered sweet nothings in Uncle Adolph's ear and Rüdenberg was allowed to leave the country. He attribituted this to - being loyal to the old guard of WW1 fighter pilots.

my rant is over.

cul

tcrean7828

tom

[Roadhog]

I just can't help thinking that Herman Goering might have been a much nicer person if he'd have met Jenny Craig. It just might have worked since I don't think that Jenny was jewish! Roadhog

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Roadhog

I just can't help thinking that Herman Goering might have been a much nicer person if he'd have met Jenny Craig. It just might have worked since I don't think that Jenny was jewish! Roadhog

Roadhog,
I agree, please send me a pm with e-mail address. tks

cul

tcrean7828

tom

[Lawrence Milner]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

The statement that Udet "...got in trouble with the Gestapo and committed suicide" in the posted bio is incorrect. He ran afoul of his boss and fellow WW I aviator, Hermann Goering. As the top-surviving German ace of the War, Udet was a national hero, and Goering harbored a long-running jealousy of his fame. When Goering found himself as chief of the Luftwaffe,
as well as Reichsmarschall, Udet become something of a whipping boy for him, despite Udet's outstanding organizational work with the fledgling Luftwaffe (it was Udet who actually negotiated with the Soviet Union officials to allow the pre-war Luftwaffe to train in Soviet Russia away from the eyes of the WW I Allies and the League of Nations). Following the failure in the Battle of Britain, as well as other mistakes such as Udet's indifference to the
development of jet aircraft, Goering laid the blame solely at Udet's feet.
Despondent, Udet took his own life.

Fallschirmjager

I happen to be reading 'Göring' by David Irving and he states on page 280 ".. the only man whom he allowed to share his Jacuzzi was Ernst Udet. 'Those two little fat frogs' Milch was once heard saying, perhaps a trifle enviously, to incredulous fellow prisoners after the war, 'used to sit there naked in a sort of swimming pool'. (This was circa 1939) Any comment? Udet was also a frequent visitor to Carinhall and he was welcomed as an entertainer. He could be a very funny man, according to Gerhard Fieseler.

Lawrence Milner

[WarrenD]

"I happen to be reading 'Göring' by David Irving"

Lawrence,
Is this the same David Irving that wrote that crap about how the U.S. systematically and deliberately starved German POW's? If so, and I think it is, I would take ANYTHING that this guy writes with a very large piece of salt. He suffers a terrible reputation with legitimate military historians. One of my old history professors offered to debate him publicly at a history conference in Canada years back, and Irving refused to not only debate him, but anyone publicly at this conference.
That being said, yes Udet and Goring are both interesting characters, IIRC Udet especially loved coming to the U.S. and meeting with former foes. He was an extremely gregarious and chrismatic fellow by all accounts.
Also, while we are on the subject of calling in favors of Hermann to get former Jewish aviators out of Nazi Germany, let's not forget the efforts of Carl Degelow. He made enough of a pest of himself that Goring eventually refused to take anymore calls from him, telling a subordinate to tell Degelow not to call anymore.

Warren

[tcrean7828]

Mates

Guess that the latest response proves my point again.

cul

tcrean7828

tom