Unconfirmed Irish Aces - Edward Mick Mannock

[Mo Chára]

For as long as i can remember i have always had a deep admiration for any man willing to stand up and fight for what they believe is right none more so than the Knights Of The Sky in World War One.
One pilot who caught my attention is Edward Mick Mannock. Even though Ireland was never officially entered into World War One, a vast amount of men fought for numerous armies in countless area's and fields. I am very upset and troubled at the fact that this Ace is branded as being English as Mick Mannock was an Irish Ace, my proof comes from the Wikipedia website which states the following: "Edward Mannock was born in Ballincollig, County Cork, Ireland on May 24, 1887 (hence the nickname "Mick")."
This has nothing to do with Irish/English relations and politics, thats a long road im not going down. I just find it very offensive that pilots such as Mick Mannock are portrayed as being born in England as this is clearly not the case this also applies to other unconfirmed Irish Aces such as Conn O'Grady, Paddy Langan-Byrne, Joe Callaghan, Eddy Hartigan, Cochran Patrick.
I believe that no matter what Squadron, Regiment or Battalion a fallen man has fought for, he should also be remembered for what land/country he was originally from to preserve their memory and recognition of who they really were. I would deeply appreciate your feedback/opinions on the subject of these "Irish Aces".

Thank you.

[Paddy]

Slainte!

If place of birth is sufficient then I believe that yes, Ireland can claim him, although I believe that his father was not Irish. Interesting that both Countries want to claim him!

WJC Kennedy Cochran Patrick , Francis Dominic Casey and Tom Falcon Hazell were Sons of Ireland and successful combat pilots. Unfortunately, Casey did not survive the war, and neither of the other two into old age. Great pity. Cochran Patrick is mentioned as "Patrick" in Sagittarius Rising. He was a very experienced airman. There are interesting accounts of all three in various volumes of Mike O'Connor's excellent series Airfields & Airmen as well as in some of the Osprey books. These three have held the most interest to me. The others that you mention are certainly familiar, but for one reason or another I have not read as much of them.

There are photographs of Patrick's Nieuport 16 and I have finally located a photograph of one of Hazell's Nieuport 23. (Both are in the recent Cross & Cockade book on Nieuports) Hazell met Udet in combat and was lucky to make it home. His very shot up SE5a is also a subject of a photograph. A photograph of Casey's Sopwith Pup has continued to elude me. I intend to build a model of each in the future as a tribute. I am very grateful that good models of each type, and photographs to help with the details (for the most part) are available.

Oiche mhaith!

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Mo Chára

my proof comes from the Wikipedia website which states the following: " Edward Mannock was born in Ballincollig, County Cork, Ireland on May 24, 1887 (hence the nickname "Mick")."

So Mick Jagger is Irish, right?

Wikipedia states:

an informed e-mail correspondent noted that Mannock's birth certificate clearly referred to his Irish birth.

I received an email declaring the same thing but when I requested to see the birth certificate I received no further response from the author.

This has been discussed in several other threads including WHO on earth thinks Mannock was born in Ireland??? - Part II

[albapfalzd3]

IMHO a persons place of birth has little bearing on a persons nationality. If an expecting U.S. couple were vacationing in Canada and oops...out came the little one...would that child now be Canadian even though they all go back to the States and live the rest of their lives never returning to Canada? I am sure by law the child is a duel citizen for some amount of time but does he/she ever really consider him or herself to be Canadian? I think it should be based more on the persons perspective and obligations to which ever nation they claim as their own. If Mannock claimed to be Irish and Ireland his home than yes he should be remembered as being Irish.

Roy

[Dan_San_Abbott]

albapfalzd3:
Roy, I was born in Canton, China of American parents, who at the time were residents of China. That makes me Chinese by by birth, but American by derivative citizenship. Also I am of Irish exaction through my grandparent on my Mother's and Irish on my Father's side of the five generations back. The problem is there was some fence-jumping in those five generations with some English, Scot, French and Dutch thrown in. Fortunately there was a continuity of Irish as well. So that makes me Chinese-Irish-American., hmmm, C.I.A. I wonder if there is a connection.
Paddy, you missed another great Irishman, James Thomas Byford McCudden.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[albapfalzd3]

What I am saying all legalities aside is that if Mannock claimed to be Irish and Ireland his home than he should be remembered as an Irishman. If he considered himself to be an Englishman he should be remembered as being English no matter where he was born.


Roy

[Paddy]

Mr. Abbott

Sir: I must honestly admit that I did not know that Maj. J T B McCudden is of Irish descent. I have always greatly admired his achievements. Suffice it to say that I like him even more now!

[crankcase]

as DS Abbott has made clear, national labels can be thrown around but real understanding an individual lies in personal ID and allegiance. cultural heritage is only a starting point. many irish went to fight for king and country before an independent ireland existed. as for mick mannock, he was roughed up by the turks at the outbreak of the war and he seemed anxious to join up and kill huns more as a personal campaign. curious fellow but brilliant leader.
CC (marc cannizzo -- sicilian ancestry, with enough italian to order in an italian restaurant)

[normanf]

It would be good if the matter of the birth certificate could be confirmed. I have yet to find one in the obvious places, both civilian or army, so will the person who has seen a copy please confirm place of birth. I too beleive it to be Cork as that is what he wrote on his Aero Certificate. Although it has to be said that he gave an incorrect age on his 1914 passport!! Normanf

[JohnReid]

When your up there fighting to save your ass country of origin is of little concern.It is their personal bravery that I admire!