Edward Mannock VC

[Graeme]

Hans

There are at least seven other claims by Mannock for aircraft that might have been out of control but were allowed only as "driven down" and his MC citation suggests another two balloon victories; this would give a total of 71, tantalisingly close to Bishop's 72.

The list of 62 I have posted is merely my assessment based on a review of combat reports etc I did in the 1980s - later researchers have concluded that perhaps only 61 claims were allowed by higher authority.

Graeme

[Hans Molier]

Oké Graeme, thank you very much. But can you please tell me what you mean with 'driven down' ? Perhaps a stupid question, but I really have no idea what this means.

[Graeme]

Hans

By no means a stupid question.

Originally there were some very vague claims such as driven off, driven east, driven down with pilot/observer wounded etc which, during 1916/17, became consolidated into the "decisive" claims, ie "destroyed" and "driven down out of control". The driven down out of control seems to have been allowed as a decisive claim provided that an appreciable amount of ammunition had been expended at reasonably close range, ie there must have been some damage to aeroplane and/or crew, but the ultimate fate of the machine could not be observed.

Where it was deemed, for whatever reason, that the enemy machine was not out of control, the claim was deemed "indecisive", so was simply "driven down". These, generally, have been excluded from the scores of the Empire's aces.

Graeme

[Hans Molier]

Oké Graeme, thank you very much for this explanation.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Graeme:
I have watched this debate over victories, with some amusement. I contend that if you kick sh-- out of the kid down the block, and he ran home crying, you were the winner. You won the fight.
If a pilot drives off a Artillery spotter and you prevent him from accomplishing his mission, you won the battle, you accomplish your precise mission, you prevented him from accomplishing his mission, that is a victory. So I can see how the HQ can award a victory to the pilot. If he destroys the emeny machine all the better, it cost money, time and effort to replace it. No matter what, it take big cahonees (incorrect spelling) to do it, either way. Kill the pilot, big time cost, time and effort!! Its all about money, time and effort!
Merry Christmas Graeme,
Dan-San

[alex_revell]

Good point Dan. I've always taken the view that a 'driven down' is a victory. The equivilant of a boxer winning on points.

[Graeme]

Dan-San and Alex

You'll get no argument from me

However, the purists amongst us will contend that to make meaningful comparisons of each nations' aces it is necessary to compare like-with-like, ie excluding the "moral" victories. While this enables us to say that pilot X definitely destroyed more enemy aeroplanes than pilot Y, it does not show us the full picture.


Merry Christmas to you both.

Graeme

[Barrett]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Dan-San and Alex

However, the purists amongst us will contend that to make meaningful comparisons of each nations' aces it is necessary to compare like-with-like, ie excluding the "moral" victories. While this enables us to say that pilot X definitely destroyed more enemy aeroplanes than pilot Y, it does not show us the full picture.

Graeme

Actually, it means that pilot X was credited with more destroyed than pilot Y. It can mean a big difference (can anybody spell B-I-S-H-O-P?)

We can (and have, and do, and will) argue the merits of the OOC credit, but IMO "driven down" is pointless. Like the decked pugilist, what's to prevent the driven downee (?) from climbing back up and resuming his nefarious activities?

Nothing.....

[Harry Tate]

Very interesting thread for me personally, as I have a signed (in 2 places!) copy of Jones' biography of Mannock.

Since the British allowed shared victories, I wonder if some of the undocumented claims might be fractional, cumulative victories?

[Hans Molier]

By the way....., who owns Mannocks medals ? Lord Michael Ashcroft or the RAF museum at Hendon ?