Edward Mannock VC

[Gregvan]

Hi Fellows,

For what it's worth: In the back of Generalleutnant a. D. Walter von Eberhardt's massive (and semi-official) history of the German air force in WWI, "Unsere Luftstreitkräfte 1914-18", there is a necrology of nearly all the German airmen who lost their lives in active service in WWI (Verlustliste der deutschen Luftstreitkräfte im Weltkriege). This is about as official as one can get, and lists the birthdate and place of each airman along with their death details.

It lists: "Derlin Günther Ltn.d.R. 23.11.90 Berlin +6.5.18 Ploegstiertwald"

I believe this is the source used for most of the secondary sources we have. I wonder if the date of 6 June in The Jasta Pilots is the typo, and not vice-versa. I'll check with Rick and one or two others who should know.

Greg

[R Gannon]

Graeme and who ever else is interested.

Please indulge me in this time line re the 17 May 18 airfights: German times are adjusted to British time.

1115 Capt Rochford (203 Sqn) who's B flight had been scrapping with German a/c crashes a Pfalz in field near Beauper.

c1115 Capt Mannock along with Lt Howe of 74 Sqn attempt to attrack attention of flight of Camels re an attack on formation of 6 Albatross (Js 14?)

1120 Unsuported Mannock sends one of the Albatros down OOC S Bailluel.

1125 Obln Auffarth SF of Js 29 shoots down 'Sopwith' over Merville (Lt Prideaux B/203 MIA / KIA)

1130 Members B/203 see what they believe is a Pfalz in flames - this is later credited to B Flight (inc Prideaux).

c1130 Flight of 210 Sqn see EA in Flames which is later held to be EA attacked by Mannock.

1130 Uffz Pech Js 29 claims & credited with SE5 over Morbecque his 7th Luftseige - this is a/c of Mannock who was chased back across lines.

1130 Ltn Werner SF Js 14 credited with SE5 over Floris (Brit side S Nieppe) - this is 2Lt Stone B/203 who was ftl near St Venant by a Tripe.

Lt Predeaux is missing - other B Flight members thought last seen under control low over Merville. Tich Rochford however felt he saw Prideaux Camel fall in flames. - For my money Camel seen under control was probably 2Lt Brown who's Camel was shot about in this fighting.

On balance of evidence an a/c fell in flames c1130 - as ther is no corresponding German fatal loss, then as I see it this has to be a/c of Prideaux.

The point I am trying to make is that this incident along with the 23 Sep 17 incident involving 2Lt Barlow is evidence that British pilots & aircrew 'occasionally' in the heat of dogfights mis-identified their own stricken a/c as that of the enemy. I can point to a dozen or so more such incidents - not blue on blues, but simply mis-identifications caused by fog of war.

On a side issue - Taffy Jones in both his 'Tiger Squadron' & 'King of the Air Fighters' returned furious that the Camel flight did not follow him into the attack leaving himself and Howe in precarious situation. Jones even hints towards cowardice on part of the unidentified Camel flight. Now the Camel flight in question may have been the 210 Sqn flight which confirmed an EA in flames, however I suspect it was A/203 Sqn under Capt Beamish who got the rare opportunity to gang up on a lone Albatross at 1120 - which they jointly crashed S of Merville - the real reason why I suspect they did not follow Mannock.

To add to the intruige a Vfw Phillip of Js 57 is reported kia on this date having apparently set off on solo flight. The location of his loss is given as the rather ambiguous Somme - rather along way south of Js 57's area of operations. Unfortunately the otherwise informative Stahle diary sheds no light on this loss. Pointedly Strahle the SF of Js 57 had written off his Alb Dv 4594/17 on the previous day. My suspicion again is a typo error - that Somme should read Calonne which is S of Merville. If so Phillip was the pilot of the lone Albatros.

Finally at the point of sounding like a dog unable to let go of a bone. Re 2 Jun 18 - I dug up the 1 Sqn SRB - C/1 Sqn 5 strong took off at 0910 and proceeded direct to Bailluel where they dropped 14 bombs. Immediately thereafter they engage 4 Albatross one of which Clayson crashed at 0940 at the forementioned map reference (cfm by flight) and I would say rather vaguely given as NORTH of Pacaut. They went on to engage 5 2-seaters over Pacaut at 1025 one of which they drove down. The flight also reported that they had seen a fight involvinf 7 a/c over Bailluel at 0950 - 3 of which looked to be Camels. An a/c was seen to go down and crash.

I can find no corresponding Camel squadron data to fit this latter incident - but maybe something has slipped through my net - Do you have anything Graeme?

[Graeme]

Tom

An alternative 17 May 1918 "dogfight chronology":

Capt L H Rochford, 2nd Lt C F Brown, Lt R Stone and Lt E R Prideaux shoot down a Pfalz in flames between Merville and Estaires at 11:15;

Capt L H Rochford claims another Pfalz "destroyed" north of Estaires - Beaupre at about the same time;

Prideaux is shot down in Camel B6408 at 11:15 by Oblt Harald Auffarth, Jasta 29, his 14th victory;

Capt H F Beamish, 1st Lt W Goodnow, Lt W H Skinner, Lt R Sykes and Lt J D Breakey claim an Albatros scout that crashed south of Merville at 11:20;

Mannock knocks down a Pfalz that crashed in flames south of Bailleul at 11:20;

Uffz Karl Pech, Jasta 29, claims an SE5 at 11:20 over Morbecque (some 17 Km west-south-west of Bailleul) - some have said that this was Lt L M Nixon of No 74 Sqn, but he was shot down in flames over La Gorgue at 09:45; this was his 7th victory;

Ltn d R Johannes Werner, Jasta 14, claims an SE5 at Floris at 11:30, his 5th victory;

Saint-Floris is only 2 Km east of Saint-Venant and Morbecque is 8 Km north of Saint-Floris and Saint-Venant;

Pech's victim could quite conceivably have been Stone who went down near Saint-Venant (even at this stage of the war, German pilots still mis-identified Camels and SE5s) and who was also claimed by Werner;

Nieppe is 4 Km south-east of Bailleul so is 20 Km north-east of where Stone came down;

Because there's no fatal German casualty recorded on this date doesn't mean there wasn't one - there are examples where aeroplanes fell on the allied side of the lines but the names of the crewmen do not appear as casualties.

The 2 June 1918 episode:

The earliest Camel involvement I can see was a flight from 208 Sqn led by Capt W L Jordan; he, Lt P M Dennett, Lt R L Johns and Lt J S McDonald claimed an Albatros scout "destroyed" shortly after mid-day to the north of Lestrem (about 14 Km south of Bailleul) - Johns claimed another out of control at 12:20 between Merville and Estaires.

I have found a better location for Pacaut (now known as Pacault ?), this being about 9 Km north of Bethune and 5 Km south of Merville; had the crash site been confirmed as being more than 2 km north of Pacaut, it would have been "south of Merville". This would make it about 18 Km south-south-west of Bailleul; still too far away for Dunkelberg to be Clayson's victim, I believe.

Graeme

[R Gannon]

Graeme

17 May 18

As I have it the shared B/203 claim was at 1130 - very close to time of Auffarth vic over Prideaux.

As for Mannock, he had to spin down and then was chased back across lines by an EA as far as north edge Nieppe Forest. Pech claim Morbecque is just west of north edge, prob reflecting last sighting of Mannock's SE.

Stone down by a Tripe and Werner was attested Tripe merchant at this juncture.

Vfw Pech was kia on 19 May 18 almost certainly by Capt White of 29 Sqn - his victim is given as Phalz.

Lt Nixon of 74 Sqn almost certainly shot down by Gefr Schumm of Js 52.

You might note that I bracketed Js 14 behind 6 Albatros attacked by Mannock. Some might ask if so, where was Werner and his Tripe? Having studdied endless CR's, SRB's and first hand German accouts it become clear that Jasta patrols were often flown in two formations - an upper patrol of 6-8 A/C and a lower patrol usually of 3 A/C in front and a couple of thousand feet lower. The upper patrol clearly acted as top cover whilst the lower patrol most probably were primarily on the lookout for Corps aircraft - 3 A/C would not get in each others way as would be the case if whole Jasta attacked a Corps A/C. The lower patrol also acted as bait for Allied scouts, and would melt away - As Lothar von Richthofen put it 'to go downstairs' - as soon as attacked leaving attackers to be dived upon by upper patrol.

As I see it the 6 Albatros were flying top cover to the Tripe element of Js 14 who along with Js 29 were scrapping with B/203.

2 Jun 18

Yep have the 208 Sqn claims - they were in combat with Js 43 and lost Lt Dennett to Vzf Kiep.

I think I should elaborate on the Mannock - Jacobs angle.
Jacobs of Js 7 was on patrol in the Bailluel area 16.30-1740 (times adjusted) when attacked by 5 SE5's. Jacobs' tail was shot about by SE5 with streamers. Mannock describes E/A as Pfalz - dark with white tail - which tallies with Js 7 colours. Jacobs diary makes it clear that he alternated first between his Tripe and a Pfalz and then later with DVII.

If you can entertain this, then Clayson claim looks best in area for loss of Dunkleberg - As I read them neither Clayson's CR or 1 Sqn SRB give location as '2 km' north of Pacaut. The key as I see it is the map reference sheet S 36a.Q.17d - but I don't have access to original map of area.

As to Tom Cundall - the reluctant Camel flying hero from 'Winged Victory' - he served his purpose for a recon of this site.

Best regards Russ

[Hans Molier]

The last weeks I've received several mails from people in Ireland who have mailed me they are still searching for more information about the place of birth of Mannock VC. To be continued.......

For those who are interested in what happened whith Mannock's medals, I want to let them know I recently received a mail from Lord Michael Ashcroft. A part of this mails goes as follows :

"Dear Mr. Molier,

Thank you for your recent e-mail to Lord Ashcroft concerning Edward 'Mick' Mannock to which he has asked me to reply. I am happy to confirm that Mannock's VC is owned by the Ashcroft Collection and has his Distinguished Service Order & 2 bars and his Military Cross & bar with the VC itself. Sadly there are no service medals in the group as it appears they were never claimed due to Mannock's death before the War ended."

[mustang]

Mr Molier

In regard to your search for the birthplace of Mannock this information may, or may not, be of some use to you.

In 1991 I was working out of Cork airport in Ireland. In circumstances which I described in a previous post several years ago I met an elderly gentleman who claimed that his mother was Mannock's youngest sister. I saw no documentary evidence to support this claim but saw no reason to disbelieve him. He stated that Mannock was from that area.

Ballincollig is a very small village several miles rom Cork airport. I have driven through it and flown over it many times. It is still very rural and I doubt that it has changed very much since Mannock's day. I don't think that there would be much in the line of birth records, other than Parish records available there. However, in about 1864 in Ireland,births commenced to be recorded in a central registry which is maintained in Dublin. Another possible source is the municipal records maintained in the larger provincial cities outside of Dublin. Cork City Council may possibly maintain earlier details of births in County Cork where Ballincollig is situated. Or, alternatively, provide some lead towards the information you seek.

Good luck in your search

Mustang

[Hans Molier]

Dear Mustang,

Thank you very much for sharing this personal information with us. As mentioned before, in Ireland they are still searching for usefull information.

I will surely try to contact the central registry which is maintained in Dublin, municipal records and the Cork City Council. You'll never know.....

Again many thanks and I'll keep you all informed.