Edward Mannock VC

Hans Molier · 9 December 2007, 03:40 AM

I'm writing a great Dutch article about VC-recipient

Edward Mannock VC. Therefor I've go the following questions.....

1. Can anyone please tell me where VC-recipient Mannock VC was born ? I think he was born in Ballincollig, Co. Cork, Ireland, but I've also found information that he was born in Brighton and in Aldershot. And therefor, what was his nationality......, Irish or British ?
2. What was the total number of machines definitely accounted for by Major Mannock ?
a. 73 - according David Harvey in his book 'Monuments to Courage' ?
b. 50 - according WW1 VC Holders ?
c. 47 - according Edward Mannock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ?
d. 61 - according Maj. Edward "Mick" Mannock, VC ?
e. 61 - according Edward Corringham Mannock - The Aerodrome - Aces and Aircraft of World War I ?
f. or....... ?

Kirk R. Lowry · 9 December 2007, 07:36 AM

Bonjour Hans

I believe it would be most accurate to state that

Edward Mannock was not born in Ireland, but, was born at or near to the Preston Calvary Barracks at Brighton, England on May 24, 1887 as indicated in King of Air Fighters by Jones and Mannock VC by Oughton and Smyth.

As for victory claims the total to ascribe to Mannock is difficult to determine, but, 73, was not correct ... a total that Jones noted simply so that Mannock would appear on the top of any list of British Empire aces. The most considered total would appear to be that arrived at by Shores, Franks, Guest -
1 balloon, 3 and 2 shared captured, 30 and 5 shared destroyed, 17 and 3 shared out of control = 61. The information is to be found in the authors'

Above the Trenches which includes great detail about the claims as well as those which are either unconfirmed of simply unsubstantiated - that book is a source which should be consulted.

That said there are several members of The Aerodrome Forum who are qualified authorities on the subject of Mannock who could offer a wealth of information to you Hans.

Salut!
Kirk

Graeme · 10 December 2007, 03:09 PM

His FAI "ticket" says he was born in Cork - he would still be British.

As for how many aeroplanes he "definitely" shot down, that's anybody's guess. The quoted figure(s) take into consideration "out of control" claims which were accepted as decisive, even though the ultimate fate of the enemy machine could not be determined. My own compilation shows 1 balloon in flames, 4 aeroplanes "broke up", 6 captured (2 shared), 25 crashed (5 shared), 5 in flames and 21 out of control (3 shared) for a total of 62.

The citation for his Military Cross says "For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. In the course of many combats he has driven off a large number of enemy machines, and has forced down three balloons, showing a very fine offensive spirit and great fearlessness in attacking the enemy at close range and low altitudes under heavy fire from the ground." So perhaps he should be shown with 64?

The citation for his Victoria Cross states: "The total number of machines definitely accounted for by Major Mannock up to the date of his death in France (26th July, 1918) is fifty - the total specified in the Gazette of 3rd August, 1918, was incorrectly given as 48 instead of 41."

Graeme

TomVrille · 10 December 2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Molier

1. Can anyone please tell me where VC-recipient Mannock VC was born ? I think he was born in Ballincollig, Co. Cork, Ireland, but I've also found information that he was born in Brighton and in Aldershot. , wAnd thereforhat was his nationality......, Irish or British ?
2. What was the total number of machines definitely accounted for by Major Mannock ?

Greetings Hans..

Ballincollig was the village in which Mannock's mother Julia was living when she met Corporal

Edward Mannock, Mick's father, in the summer of 1881. Julia and Edward married in the spring of 1882, and left soon thereafter for Corporal Mannock's posting to Glasgow. Patrick Mannock, Mick's older brother, was born at Aldershot in March, 1886. Mick was born on 24 May 1887 in Cork, where the Mannocks had relocated for annual military maneuvers. All this information can be found in 'Mick', The Story of Major Edward Mannock by James M. Dudgeon, the best Mannock biography in my opinion.

As for the victory total, be prepared for a lot of Flak whatever total you settle on! I would cop out and say :"...more than 60"

Hans Molier · 12 December 2007, 01:11 AM

Dear members, thank you all very much for your replies. It seems Mannock VC was born in Ballincollig, Co. Cork, on May 24, 1887 and therefor had the Irish nationality. However there is still some confusion about the total of victories.......... I've placed my post also on my own Victoria Cross forum and there also were some very interesting replies. Again many, many thanks

alex_revell · 12 December 2007, 02:42 AM

Hans,
According to

Mick Mannock. Fighter Pilot. Myths Lies and Politics (2001) by Adrian Smith, Mannock was born on 21 May 1888 at Preston Cavalry Barracks in Brighton. Smith comments that Dudgeon placed Mannock's mother in Cork because the 2nd Dragoons were posted there, but states that the records of the regiment show that it was in the south of England in both 1887 and 1888.
Regarding Mannock's victory score. I think it would be better to comment in your article that his worth lay in his great talent and work as a patrol leader not in the number of his victories. Many pilots, including Grid Caldwell - no mean patrol leader himself - considered him to be the greatest patrol leader/Flight Commander of the war, of either side.
To come back to Mannock's victory score. Many years ago someone speculated that

Ira Jones inflated the total to 73 to make it one more than Bishop. This speculation has been repeated so many times that it is now accepted as a fact. I don't believe that this is so. If Jones wanted to raise M's score above that of Bishop, why stop at one more. Why not make it five or ten more and make it certain. Also, Jones must have been aware of Bishop's reputation throughout the RAF and would have known that there was no need to inflate M's score. Many people seem to think that it was Jones and Jones alone who pestered the authorities to award M the VC. He may have been a prime mover in the campaign but there were many others involved.
Perhaps someone on the Forum could investigate M's victories and come up with a definitive list.

Hans Molier · 12 December 2007, 03:52 AM

Alex, many thanks for your reply.

Because there still is some confusion about the exact date of birth and place of birth of

Edward Mannock VC, I've just sent some mails to :
1. the Victoria Cross Society
2. the City of Brighton
3. the City of Cork
4. the City of Ballincollig
and several newspapers and musea in these cities. I'll keep you all informed !

Hans Molier · 12 December 2007, 08:47 AM

According a contributor of the VC Society

Edward Mannock was born 24th May 1887 at Preston Barracks, Brighton.

crankcase · 12 December 2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Molier

... It seems Mannock VC was born in Ballincollig, Co. Cork, on May 24, 1887 and therefor had the Irish nationality.

...that makes him irish in terms of cultural heritage, but politically a subject (and citizen) of the united kingdom of great britain and ireland...
CC

Hans Molier · 12 December 2007, 09:39 AM

And it gets more and more interesting, because I just recieved the following mail from the City of Ballincolligonline .......

Dear Hans,
we will check with our historical sources and get back to you as soon as
possible. But may I say everybody living locally who knows of him
believe that he was born in Ballincollig. I will see if a copy of his
birth certificate is available.