I have a question about Jasta combat sorties

[tcrean7828]

Mates,

It can be said with pretty good certenly, that of all of the 14 pilots assigned to Jasta 10 Ltn. Werner Voss flew his Fokker F.I 103/17 with Ltn.d.R. Gustav S. Bellen flying Pfalz D.III on his right and Ltn.d.R. Friedrich Rüdenberg flying Pfalz D.III on his left as his wing men, went aloft together that night. That makes 3 of 14 members of Jasta 10[/B]

Various sources (indicated below) show that Alois Heldmann, Max Kühn, Erich Löwenhardt, Gustav S. Bellen, Friedrich Rüdenberg, Ernst Weigand were aloft and held in check from joining the dogfight by SPADS,SOPWITH Camels, S.E 5's, etc in the area above Voss and there was a flight of Camels below him along with some folks from Jasta 8 and ?

I realize that Paul Aue, after being wounded on 19 Sept 1917, but he continued to fly on active service for nearly a year before being forced to seek hospital treatment – ‘von Richthofen’s Flying Circus’by Greg VanWyngarden – pg 41. [/b] I believe that it made him available for flight on 23 Sep 1917, but we can for the moment add him to the other list of available pilots that stayed behind.

Werkmeister unknown time of his arrival, for the moment add him to the other list of available pilots that stayed behind.

Lt.Löwenhardt[/B] at 11:10 AM slightly wounded , emergency landing near Roulers (ok) On 20 Sept 1917, suffered a minor wound (Wounded In Action) at Roulers at 1000(1110) hr. as the battle of Menin Road Ridge erupted and was back in action 24 hours later shooting down a Balloon at 1925 on 21 Sept 1917 near Vlammertinghe. I contend that with his temperment and his fighter instict, he also went aloft with Voss .

von Bieber-Palubizki - presumably available.

Burggaller - presumably available.

Hardel - presumably available (unlike Graeme, but, as your self, sources I have consulted (The Jasta Pilots by Franks, Bailey, Duiven and The Illustrated Red Baron by Kilduff) indicate service with Jasta 10 from August 24, 1917. not September, another pilot is available

Roemer - perhaps available, but, as service with Jasta 10 began on September 21, 1917 it is doubtful if a patrol was flown due to inexperience. [B]Experience is learned/Gained the hard way - in the air.[/B]

Wawzin - presumably available.

Werkmeister - perhaps available, but, as service with Jasta 10 began on September 23, 1917 is is doubtful if a patrol was flown due to inexperience.[B]Experience is learned/Gained the hard way - in the air.[/B]
Note: Werkmeister was killed in combat on September 25, 1917 by Lt Bowman of 56 Squadron in which he also KIA (shot down in flames) Oblt Ernst Weigand within minutes of shooting down Werkmeister.

Note: Rammjaeger reports that a new pilot arrived on 14th in JG1 and died on this day in air combat, so if it looks like if you were breathing you were available for combat sorties.

Can we agree that 7 of the 14 were in the air on 23 Sept 1917!

My question was who else was in the air from Jasta 10?
(that is where my experts (you folks) come into play.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

I grab the list of Allied units that were in the air at the time of the Voss battle as I do not have my books in front of me at the moment.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Tom I think that you would be correct not to include Aue on the list of those available to fly on September 23. Considering how much is actually known about Aue there are a great number of inconsistencies amongst the data available in terms of service and victories as well as awards and this is directly or indirectly referred to by O'Connor and VanWyngarden. Note though that for September 19 Bodenschatz entered that Aue was "delivered to Military Hospital 13, Courtrai". As well in the biography of Aue included in Above the Lines by Franks, Bailey, Guest includes the statement "his wound not having healed properly, he returned to the squadron in February 1918".

Another comment by Bodenschatz is relevant to the concerns you have in a more general way ... referring to September 20 it is noted that "Jasta 10 took off only twice, with five airplanes each time. It has suffered heavy losses in the way of wounded pilots in the last few days". Yes, even more difficult days were ahead. September proved to be the most trying time for Jasta 10.

Salut!
Kirk

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Kirk R. Lowry

Tom I think that you would be correct not to include Aue on the list of those available to fly on September 23. Considering how much is actually known about Aue there are a great number of inconsistencies amongst the data available in terms of service and victories as well as awards and this is directly or indirectly referred to by O'Connor and VanWyngarden. Note though that for September 19 Bodenschatz entered that Aue was "delivered to Military Hospital 13, Courtrai". As well in the biography of Aue included in Above the Lines by Franks, Bailey, Guest includes the statement "his wound not having healed properly, he returned to the squadron in February 1918".

Another comment by Bodenschatz is relevant to the concerns you have in a more general way ... referring to September 20 it is noted that "Jasta 10 took off only twice, with five airplanes each time. It has suffered heavy losses in the way of wounded pilots in the last few days". Yes, even more difficult days were ahead. September proved to be the most trying time for Jasta 10.

Salut!
Kirk

Kirk,
Mate, now we are getting some where.

I have to agree the Aue, with open festering wounds would not be a good candatate for combat, but what I have read of him he had spunk and a lot of guts to go at it for a year, until ordered to stay on the ground.

So it it safe to say that of the 14 pilots available at Jasta 10 on 23 Sept 1917, 7 of those gentleman went aloft on Voss' last combat patrol?

That is until further evidence comes about to show that some others were aloft as well on that fateful day, if only the watch the show.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom