I have a question about Jasta combat sorties

[tcrean7828]

Mates,
I have drawn a blank on this one subject for the moment and it is driving me nuts and hope that you will straighten my brain out.

In a Jasta squadron in 1917, was it customery for all the pilots to go up at once or was it set up for them to go up in stages (i.e. half the group goes up in the morning and the rest go up in the afternoon) while rotating each day??

Where there specific pilots that only went up when it was their turn, or did some stay behind while others went aloft?????

Like I said in the beginning - my brain is at a glass ceiling at the moment, and need some assistance on this one.

The answers I receive will generate the answers to the next queston:

Here are the 14 Pilot names (Jasta 10) that I can safely say were available for flight on 23 Sept 1917?

Of those 14 gentleman pilots of Jasta 10, 7 can be safely said to have gone aloft with Werner Voss on his fathfull day:

3 flights went up with Voss for the evening patrol

First Evening Flight Group:
1. Ltn.d.R. Werner Voss flying - F.I 103/17 triplane – Ser No. 103/17
2. Ltn.d.R. Gustav S. Bellen flying – Pfalz D.III – Ser No. 4169/17
3. Ltn.d.R. Friedrich Rüdenberg flying – Pfalz D.III – Ser No. 1379/17

First Evening Flight, Second Group:
1. Oblt Ernst Weigand
2. Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn

First Evening Flight, Third Group:
1. Ltn.d.R. Erich Löwenhardt
2. Ltn.d.R. Alois Heldmann

[B]What did the rest of the Pilots available during 23 Sept 1917 do? [B]
Ofstv Paul Aue
Ltn. Bernard von Bieber-Palubitzki
Vzfw Ernst Günther Bürggaler (or Burggaler)
Uffz Hardel
Ltn. Max Römer (Roemer)
Vzfw Wawzin
Uffz August Werkmeister - Arrived on 23 Sept 1917.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[Kilian]

Do you want only to know about Jasta 10 people?

Jagd in Flanderns Himmeln:1935, Knorr & Hirth states

19.09.17 - Off.-Stellv. Aue (Jasta 10) near Roulers 10 AM. shot right through left shank. Emergency landing at Roulers (ok). Brought to Lazarett 13, Kortrijk.
20.09.17 - Lt.Löwenhardt at 11:10 AM slightly wounded , emergency landing near
Roulers (ok)
21.09.17 - Lt Römer posted with Kogenluft 61189 Fl. I. to JG I , to Jasta 10

So if we leave out Löwenhardt since he flew again on Voss' death day like you state. Aue was most probably still in Lazarett or recovering from his wound? And Römer and Werkmeister were just arrived.

This leads to my questions on this:

Can it be possible that they did not have a machine ready for them?
Was it usual to take their machines with them if they were posted somewhere else?
From which unit did they come to JG I?

Happy New Year
Kilian

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour Tom

Yes, Kilian is correct, Paul Aue was seriously wounded on September 19, 1917 and did not return to duty with Jasta 10 until February, 1918 (still suffering from a wound not healed). Some believe that the combat was with 19 Squadron, but, details indicate that elements of Jagdgeschwader I were in battle with 10 Squadron Naval when Aue was struck.

Aue was to write the following of the wounding ... "On September 19, 1917 I was wounded in air combat with three Britishers at 3,900 meters near Roulers - three bullets, one of them explosive. For almost a year I flew with open, festering wounds until I was ordered to hospital". The quote and a brief biography of Aue are to be found in Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in World War I and the Men Who Earned Them Volume III - The Aviation Awards of the Kingdom of Saxony by O'Connor.

As for those flying that evening, I know that Diggens lists the same flights and airman that you have compiled Tom, but, is the original source of that specific information known? The diary published by Bodenschatz does state "Lt Voss (Jasta 10) 6:05 p.m., took off with his Staffel".

Salut!
Kirk

[tcrean7828]

Mates,
For reply to the first quote - I agree
For reply to the second quote - I agree, the list for 2nd and 3rd flights were for convienence -

I have listed above, the 14 most probable pilots that were available for Voss' last flight. This list was taken from the 104 possible pilots that had been assigned to Jasta 10 from 1916 until 1918. I eliminated all of those pilots that had been transferred out of the unit by 23 Sept 1917 and those piloits who came after 23 Sept 1917 until EOW 11 Nov 1918, thus leaving 14 pilots available in Jasta 10 for his last patrol. (see below for reference sources.) I hopefully can safely say that the seven pilots listed went aloft on 23 Sept 1917. Voss, Bellen, Rüdenberg, Weigand, Kühn, Löwenhardt, Heldmann.

Now to the meat of the matter -

It has widely been shown in more than one source that Ltn. Werner Voss flew his Fokker F.I 103/17 with Ltn.d.R. Gustav S. Bellen flying Pfalz D.III on his right and Ltn.d.R. Friedrich Rüdenberg flying Pfalz D.III on his left as his wing men.
Oblt Ernst Weigand flying D.V, Ltn.d.R. Max Kühn flying Pfalz D.III, Ltn.d.R. Erich Löwenhardt flying Pfalz D.III and Ltn.d.R. Alois Heldmann.

---------
- Barry Diggens also has Julius Bender flying with the second group but he did not join Jasta 10 until 01 Feb 1918. Werner Voss was KIA on 23 Sept 1917 which rules him out of the combat patrol.

- 20.09.17 - Lt.Löwenhardt at 11:10 AM slightly wounded , emergency landing near Roulers (ok) On 20 Sept 1917, suffered a minor wound (Wounded In Action) at Roulers at 1000(1110) hr. as the battle of Menin Road Ridge erupted and was back in action 24 hours later shooting down a Balloon at 1925 on 21 Sept 1917 near Vlammertinghe -‘The Jasta War Chronology’ by Norman Franks – pg 100; ‘Aerodrom.com’ – Personel; ‘Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-1920’ by Norman Franks – pg 352; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 348; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt. NOTE: Putting Ltn Löwenhardt back into the pilots seat on 23 Sept 1917.
----------
- As I have pointed out with the following 7 remaining pilots:

(1) - Ofstv Paul Aue - WIA - (19.09.17 - Off.-Stellv. Aue (Jasta 10) near Roulers 10 AM. shot right through left shank. Emergency landing at Roulers (ok). Brought to Lazarett 13, Kortrijk)
Note: Wounded in action on 19 Sept 1917 at 1000 hr over Roulers. He was shot in the upper left thigh and was sent to hospital after he landed. He wrote, “On 19 Sept 1917, I was wounded in combat with 24 Britishers at 3000 meters near Roulers – three bullets, one of them explosive.” The combat report No.142 filed by Fl-Lt Desmond Fitzgerald FitzGibbon (B.6202) and Fl-Sub Lts Hugh Bingham Maund (B.6211), John G. Carroll (B.6357), Norman Miers MacGregor (B.3833) and Johnson (B.3912) in Sopwith F.1 Camels of No. 10 Squadron RNAS - ‘The Jasta War Chronology’ by Norman Franks – pg 99; ‘Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-1920’ by Norman Franks – pg 352; ‘Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1’ by Greg VanWyngarden – pg 21; ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘The Red Baron Combat Wing: Jagdgeschwader Richthofen in Battle’ – Peter Kilduff pg 146; ‘Air Aces of the 1914 – 1918 War’ by D.A. Russell – Pg 194 -197; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 348; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt.
After being wounded on 19 Sept 1917, he continued to fly on active service for nearly a year before being forced to seek hospital treatment – ‘von Richthofen’s Flying Circus’by Greg VanWyngarden – pg 41. [/B]available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(2) - Ltn. Bernard von Bieber-Palubizki - Joined Jasta 10 on: 07 July 1917 and transferred out of Jasta 10 to Idflieg on 25 Oct 1917 NOTE: available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(3) - Vzfw Ernst Günther Bürggaler (or Burggaler) - Joined Jasta 10 on: 10 Sep 1917 from Jastaschule I - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145-146; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 117; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt. He was transferred out of Jasta 10 by von Richthofen, due to 6 months of undistinguished service to AFP2 on 10 Apr 1918 - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘The Red Baron Combat Wing: Jagdgeschwader Richthofen in Battle’ – Peter Kilduff pg 193. Note: available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(4) - Uffz Hardel - Joined Jasta 10 on: 24 Aug 1917 - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘Air Aces of the 1914 – 1918 War’ by D.A. Russell – Pg 194 -197; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 154; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt; ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 146. He was lightly Wounded in Action on 20 Oct 1917 @ 1310 and forced to land (FTL) over Potteriburg. After he landeded he was transported to hospital. Note: available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(5) - Ltn. Max Römer (Roemer) -21.09.17 - Lt Römer posted with Kogenluft 61189 Fl. I. to JG I , to Jasta 10. Joined Jasta 10 on: 21 Sep 1917 - The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 242; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt; ‘The Illustrated Red Baron: The life and times of Manfred Von Richthofen’ by Peter Kilduff – pg 146. He was KIA on 02 Oct 1917 over Westroosebeke @ 10:30. Note: available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(6) - Vzfw Wawzin - Joined Jasta 10 on: 01 Sep 1917 - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘Air Aces of the 1914 – 1918 War’ by D.A. Russell – Pg 194 -197; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 290; ‘aerodrome.com’ – Rick Duiven and Lloyd Leichentritt; ‘The Illustrated Red Baron: The life and times of Manfred Von Richthofen’ by Peter Kilduff – pg 146. Transferred (Posted) out of Jasta 10 in Feb 1918. [/B]available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

(7) - Uffz August Werkmeister - Joined Jasta 10 on: 23 Sep 1917 - ‘The Illustrated Red Baron’ by Peter Kilduff pg 145; ‘Air Aces of the 1914 – 1918 War’ by D.A. Russell – Pg 194 -197; ‘The Jasta Pilots’ by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven – pg 296; ‘The Illustrated Red Baron: The life and times of Manfred Von Richthofen’ by Peter Kilduff – pg 146. He was KIA on 25 Sept 1917 at approximately 1742 over Houthulsterwald Forest. His aircraft was shot down in flames and crashed due to Lt Barlow (of 56 Squadron) marksmanship. [/B]available for flight on 23 Sep 1917.

Observers to the Voss fight but kept in check by allied forces (by many sources) were: Rudolph Wendelmuth, (Alois Heldmann, Max Kühn, Erich Löwenhardt, Gustav S. Bellen, Friedrich Rüdenberg were from Jasta 10), (Mettlich, Schwanz, Francke were from Jasta 8)

(Sources: Jasta Pilots, Theetailed Listing and Histories, Aug 1916-Nov 1918 by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey, Rick Duiven; Jasta War Chronology, The: A Complete Listing of Claims and Losses, August 1916-November 1918 by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey, Rick Duiven; Reminiscences of Jasta 10 by Heinz H. Nowarra(Cross & Cockade Vol.3-1962-Issue 3); Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-1920 by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven; Colors – Gustav S. Bellen by Greg Van Wyngarden(Over The Front-Vol.2/No4-Winter-1987); Die Fliegerei des Ersten Weltkrieges (CD-Rom Book) by Volker Nemsch; Eagles of the Black Cross by Walter Musciano; Jasta 10 CD by Lloyd Leichentritt; Lieutenant de Reserve Fredrich Rudenberg by Dov Gavish, PhD and Dieter H.M. Groschel, M.D (Over The Front Vol16/No2-Sum-2001); Red Baron Combat Wing, The: Jagdgeschwader Richthofen in Battle by Peter Kilduff; September Evening–The Life & Final Combat of German WW 1 Ace- Werner Voss by Barry Diggens; 'Richthofen's Circus': Jagdgeschwader Nr 1’ by Greg Vanwyngarden and Harry Dempsey; ‘C & C International Journal Vol. 6, No.3’ )

So back to the question, they all had ample time to have aircraft available for them to fly - did they go aloft or did they stay on the ground?

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[tcrean7828]

Mates,
I am still stuck as to the status of:
Ofstv Paul Aue
Ltn. Bernard von Bieber-Palubitzki
Vzfw Ernst Günther Bürggaler (or Burggaler)
Uffz Hardel - (NOTE: Anyone have a first name for this pilot)
Ltn. Max Römer (Roemer)
Vzfw Wawzin - (NOTE: Anyone have a first name for this pilot)
Uffz August Werkmeister

Did some of them fly on Voss' last flight or were they resting??

Can't seem to find any difinative answer one way or another??

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

Happy New Year to One and All and My all of your dreams come true!

[tcrean7828]

Mates,
Did most Jasta squadrons fly with only half their personnel and chose between morning or afternoon patrolls?


What other Jasta's were in the sky for the evening flight of 23 Sept 1917?
(Note: Jasta 8, 10 and who else)



ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[Graeme]

Tom

As per The Jasta War Diaries:

(1) - Ofstv Paul Aue – after his wounding on 19 September 1917, Aue did not return to Jasta 10 until some time in February 1918, so could not participate in the combat on 23 September.

(2) - Ltn. Bernard von Bieber-Palubizki – Joined Jasta 10 on 26 May 1917 and transferred out to Idflieg on 23 October 1917.

(3) - Vzfw Ernst Günther Bürggaler (or Burggaler) – Burggaller was with Jasta 10 from 10 September 1917 to 10 April 1918.

(4) - Uffz Hardel - Joined Jasta 10 on 12 October 1917 and wounded in action on 20 October; if the joining date is correct, then could not participate in the 23 September combat.

(5) - Ltn. Max Römer (Roemer) – Joined Jasta 10 on 21 September 1917 and killed in action 2 October.

(6) - Vzfw Wawzin - Joined Jasta 10 on 24 August 1917; posted out in Feb 1918.

(7) - Uffz August Werkmeister - Joined Jasta 10 on 23 September 1917 and killed in action two days later; probably not available for the 23 September combat.

This leaves von Bieber-Palubizki, Burggaller, Römer and Wawzin as available on 23 September 1917.

Happy New Year

Graeme

[Dan_San_Abbott]

TCrean7828:
Most Jasta were divided into generally four Kette(Chains) of three machines and combined into Schwarm (Flights) of two Ketten. I believe on active fronts they flew as a Schwarm. They were generally scheduled for two flight of 2 hours per day on inactive Fronts. During Offensive or Defensive Battles of high activity, each Schwarm might fly 4 or 5 times a day or whatever the situation demanded. During the Second Battle of the Somme from 8 to 12 August 1918, The Jagdstaffeln in the 2.Armee flew through out day protecting the Somme Bridges in an effort to get the trapped units of the 2 Armee out of the pocket between the Front and Somme bridges. Jagdstafflen and Schlachtstafflen were brought in from the 6.Armee, 17 .Armee, 18.Armee, 7.Armee and 1.Armee to the North and South of the 2.Armee. They flew thoughout the day light hours during the battle. All units suffered serious losses.
Happy New Year,
Dan-San

[Kilian]

Originally Posted by tcrean7828

Mates,
Did most Jasta squadrons fly with only half their personnel and chose between morning or afternoon patrolls?


What other Jasta's were in the sky for the evening flight of 23 Sept 1917?
(Note: Jasta 8, 10 and who else)



ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

Can you check what McCudden reported for this day?
In the Bodenschatz book i dont find any indication that other Jastas were in the sky in the evening. (may be possible but there are no other incidents reported in the combat report for the evening of that day) The dogfight is only stated in McCuddens view from a Lt.Waldhausen who was english pow at that time. So nothing new i guess. It is only told in the McCudden view there was a flight of 6 Albatros that McCudden originally wanted to attack was high above them and in a fight with a wing of Spads and couldnt help Voss.
On the other hand it is stated: "Kriegsflüge (combat missions): 75. Enemy activities in the morning few, afternoon more, evening manifold enemy one-seater activities mostly over enemy frontline.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour Tom

Well from east and west Graeme and Dan-San have saved my self further honing of typing skills ... having done significant reveling for the new year I am slow off of the mark today.

To go over the list of names for which you are in doubt in terms of availability for service on September 23 the following can be stated -

Aue - (as previously indicated) wounded and not available.

von Bieber-Palubizki - presumably available.

Burggaller - presumably available.

Hardel - presumably available (unlike Graeme, but, as your self, sources I have consulted (The Jasta Pilots by Franks, Bailey, Duiven and The Illustrated Red Baron by Kilduff) indicate service with Jasta 10 from August 24, 1917.

Roemer - perhaps available, but, as service with Jasta 10 began on September 21, 1917 it is doubtful if a patrol was flown due to inexperience.

Wawzin - presumably available.

Werkmeister - perhaps available, but, as service with Jasta 10 began on September 23, 1917 is is doubtful if a patrol was flown due to inexperience.

Consider though, that Werkmeister was killed in combat on September 25, 1917 which was two days after arrival at Jasta 10 so it can be stated that pilots could be put in harms way all but immediately if not immediately.

It may be that other situations need be considered ... perhaps one or another was on leave or suffering illness and, thus, while on the roster for Jasta 10, not actually available to fly on September 23.


Tom, you are correct to state that Julius Bender could not have been flying with Jasta 10 on September 23 as noted by Diggens as assignment to the unit did not begin until after that date. Yet that serves to indicate that it is taking a risk to presume who actually was flying. I do not doubt the research that you have undertaken, but wonder what the original sources were for the material ... how did Diggens establish who took off when?

I make no claims whatsoever as an authority on the subject of Great War aviation (though many contributors to The Aerodrome can make such a claim with justification), but, the small mind possessed can be very critical ... I would much rather an author qualify a statement or not even report the supposition than state as a fact what is at best a guess. Unfortunate it may be, but, some facts may never be established and it is best if that is acknowledged, still, one must keep trying to tell the straight story so to speak!

Well, I did far more typing than intended and now I rest awaiting a volley of Le Prieur rockets.

Salut!
Kirk