Lothar Richthofen and Albert Ball

CORVUS · 30 April 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomVrille

According to The Sky Their Battlefield, there were no triplane losses on 7 May 1917.

I'm not familiar with this reference source.

Can anyone else confirm or deny a Sopwith Triplane loss that day ?

This is crucial to say the least.

If this is accepted then it would appear that Lothar and Ball did have a real dual as the knights of old. Both attacking head on numerous times until one prevailed. Ball's engine having been hit and possibly doing some damage to the aircraft controls. Ball escaping into the clouds, becoming disoriented and eventually emerging to hit the ground due to lack of engine and aircraft controls. Lothar just a bit luckier after his plane was hit during the last attack run. Incredible.

Soderbaum · 30 April 2008, 04:21 PM

Corvus

I dont think you undesrstand description of historic facts....

The fact is that mis-identification of a/c was a rule...read some of the threads (many) on this forum which deals with this and similar incidents ...

The note from Tom Vrille is noncence, the truth is that we have fragments from

LvRs combat victory (and the wiitnesses who supported this) report from a biased british author in early 1930s...what this author chose to publish has limited historic value, but he could not "fake" everything.... In this report the author verified that in LvRs combat report he identified his victim as Capt. Ball...so whats the problem..

Gunnar

TomVrille · 30 April 2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soderbaum

The note from Tom Vrille is noncence....
Gunnar

Greetings Gunnar
I would be interested in knowing what part of my recent post you consider to be nonsense..? It presents one possible interpretation of a situation that has been considered a mystery for the past 90 years. All that is known with certainty is that

Albert Ball was killed in the crash of his SE5 on the evening of 7 May 1917. The cause of that crash cannot be determined on the basis of existing evidence, and this uncertainty is unlikely to be resolved in the next 90 years! We are left with speculation, and no one version is clearly more credible than all others.
....................TV

CORVUS · 30 April 2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soderbaum

Corvus

I dont think you undesrstand description of historic facts....

The fact is that mis-identification of a/c was a rule...read some of the threads (many) on this forum which deals with this and similar incidents ...

The note from Tom Vrille is noncence, the truth is that we have fragments from

LvRs combat victory (and the wiitnesses who supported this) report from a biased british author in early 1930s...what this author chose to publish has limited historic value, but he could not "fake" everything.... In this report the author verified that in LvRs combat report he identified his victim as Capt. Ball...so whats the problem..

Gunnar

Gunnar,

According to the book, The Red Air Fighter ,MVR's Autobiography Lothar claims to have had a dogfight with a Sopwith Triplane. It's in the book. My only knowledge of the dogfight is from this book. There is a postscript which say's that Ball was flying an SE5 that day. My question arose from this limited amount of information. You don't have to tell me I'm ignorant and I need to read more about it, just tell me what you think happened. As far as I can tell from all of these comments, no one knows for sure who shot who down and their all expressing opinions. It seems odd that after numerous flyby's when both were flying head on at each other that Lothar would get it so wrong. It's not as if it was a single fly by in a dive when you flash past one another and a mistake could have been made. When it was stated that there was a Sopwith Triplane that was shot down that day it made the story all the more intriguing. If there was no Triplane shot down and no Triplane that claims to have participated in a dogfight as described that day then it would be an understatement to say Lothar was poor at aircraft recognition.

One other thing. How in heaven's name could Lothar know he just shot down

Albert Ball. How could that be on the flight report. Was his name painted on the wings in big white letter's. Heck, the guy didn't know what type of airplane it was let alone who was flying it.
They both parted company after the last fly by. The only thing on the flight report is a fight with a Sopwith Triplane.

Lou

theboy · 30 April 2008, 06:33 PM

Jasta 11 was situated 40 miles away from Naval 8 Squadron, and about 50 miles from 10 Naval, both equipped with triplanes, in May 1917. They crossed swords on a regular basis, leading up to May 7th, the germans were well familiar with what a triplane looked like. It's silhouette is unmistakeable.

The fact that Lothar and THREE OTHER WITNESSES claim seeing a triplane out of control is HUGE!

You can bet your bottom dollar it was a triplane Lothar was seen to shoot down.

In addition to that, Lothar's combat report was added to, days later after all the press BS. There are just too many things that smell fishy about this whole thing, that it's silly for some people to even consider that Lothar shot ball down.

As for the person on the last page that said no triplane loss was recorded for May 7th 1917, if that is true, then it would not surprise me if it was a (very common) case of the Boche seeing a machine spinning towards the ground out of control, but no one witnessing impact. Pilots frequently spun all the way to the ground, coming out of it at the last minute and flying home at treetop level. It has been proven that alot of claims on both sides dont correspond with the other side for reasons like these, among others.

R Gannon · 30 April 2008, 06:35 PM

To one and all.

I think people should consult Alex Revell's

HITEB and Bowyer's 'Ball VC' for the clearest and most detailed accounting of the clash between Js 11 and 56 Sqn on the evening of 7 May. Having scruitinised this fight many times (in addition to the above I have the 56 Sqn CR's), I don't feel their is any solid evidence which supports the notion Lothar shot down Ball. This was purely a propaganda opportunity. The Triplanes were from 8 Naval and there were no losses! My take is that Lother had an indescive scrap with a Sop Tripe and then was later attacked and shot down by Ball. Ball the crashed as a result of dis-orientation.

Cheers Russ

theboy · 30 April 2008, 06:35 PM

I'd also like to point out that Lothar never saw the "triplane" crash....

theboy · 30 April 2008, 06:38 PM

If anyone has the sources, can someone please check Naval 8's combat reports for May 7th 1917 and see if any of them claim an Albatros shot down NE of Lens.

CORVUS · 30 April 2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theboy

Jasta 11 was situated 40 miles away from Naval 8 Squadron, and about 50 miles from 10 Naval, both equipped with triplanes, in May 1917. They crossed swords on a regular basis, leading up to May 7th, the germans were well familiar with what a triplane looked like. It's silhouette is unmistakeab

It would be interesting to see those flight records of those Naval Squadrons.
Where are they ?

Lou