Was Gillet that good?

[AZ Aviator]

Scott,

USAF Study No. 133 shows the following:

Date Time E.A. Pilot Aircraft Used
080118 1400-1410 Fokker 1st Lt. James Armand Meissner SPADXIII 15030

In addition the narrative indicates that Meissner left Cornell at the end of his junior year, whereas Over The Front, Franks & Bailey, indicates on p. 60 that Meissner graduated from Cornell in 1917 prior to enlisting in the Aviation Section, so one of these two sources is wrong. Plus, Meissner's age at death is incorrectly listed in the narrative. It should be listed as 39, not 38.

As an added note, Meissner never flew a Nieuport 28 after being transferred as C.O. of the 147th Aero. They had two SPAD XIIIs available for him to fly prior to that squadron being fully equipped with this type on 13 August 1918. There were a couple of reasons for this, the primary one being that Maj. Bonnell had essentially been fired on 22 July, (partly) for not wanting to give up his Nieuports to trade for SPADs, and Meissner was supposed to come in and set the tone for the squadron. It also had to do with the "Canadian Circus" moniker that the 94th and 95th Aero Squadrons had bestowed on the 147th... you know... the 147th was trained in Canada by Canadian/British officers, and as such, they liked to dogfight. They didn't like SPADs because, to quote Gorrell's History of the 147th Aero, "How we hated to see the change. The Nieuport was a reliable plane with a reliable motor. It could be easily kept in condition and was always ready for an alert or patrol. The success of the squadron in the month of July was in great part due to the Nieuport plane, for its ability to maneuver quickly enabled us to 'Carry on' with the type of fighting we had developed. Our style was the so-called 'dog fight', in which we stayed till the fight was over. We never favored the game of 'shoot and dive for home' so popular among French Spad pilots." ~ Gorrell Historical Narrative of the 147th Aero Sqdn., Part 1, on flying the Nieuport 28 fighter in July 1918. The caveat on Meissner's SPADs, however, is that usually one of the two (one being #15030) was out of service, and sometimes both were.

But the good old 147th Aero just couldn't resist putting the last word in re: what they thought about the 1st Pursuit Group foisting SPADs on them in August 1918. Again to quote Gorrell's History, Part 1, p. DO-9, ..."The SPADs ran true to form and gave every conceivable trouble, from broken oil pipes to motors that never ran at all. It was a pleasant introduction to our new fighting vehicle, and at this time began the Era of forced landings which won for the Hispano-Suiza motor an unenviable reputation among American pilots, and for the whole machine the rather doubtful nickname of 'The Pooping Spad'."

[Scott]

From the CORNELL ALUMNI NEWS, Vol. XX No. 33, Ithaca, N.Y., May 9, 1918:

Lieutenant James A. Meissner '18, who left Sibley College to enter with the first squadron the School of Military Aeronautics at Cornell, brought down his first German plane on May 2 on the American front northwest of Toul.

Meissner's feat is not altogether un-expected as he was an honor man in the first squadron which graduated from the Cornell ground school on July 14, 1917. He has had the advantage of having made flights with Lieutenant Lufberry, the American ace. He is one of the first graduates of an American ground school to destroy a hostile plane and certainly the first from the S. M. A. at Cornell. After graduating he was sent to Fort Wood, N. Y., and from there to France for flying instruction.

Apologies to OP, your thread appears to have been hijacked.

[R Gannon]

To all

Interesting thread. Here are my thoughts on some of his claims:

vic #6 - 5 Sep 18. The DVII was claimed OOC and smoking and was confirmed to have crashed and burst into flames by Lt Watson of 70 Sqn. It may possibly have been Gefr Katzner of Js 43 who went missing on this date - but no time or loc - and later reported kia in Kofl 4 return for 16 Sep 18. Gillet claim the best in in Js 43's area of ops.

vic #9 - 28 Sep 18. His DVII claim clearly in fight with MFJ 4 (time loc match) - 3 claims by 79 Sqn and 2 claims by MFJ 4 but clearly no serious loss on either side.

vic#12 - 5 Oct 18. DVII claim possibly over Obln Auffarth SF of Js 29 who FTL in DVII 387/18 this date. Gillet and another 79 Sqn pilot went to aid of a formation of 206 Sqn DH9's under attackfrom 6 or 10 DVII's - depending on source. Js 29 made 4 DH 9 claims against 3 DH9's downed (one Brit side but by Flak).

vic's#13 & 14 - 8 Oct 18 Very likely in combat with Js 7. Gillet's second crashed and burst into flames and was very possibly machine of Uffz Eigenbrodt who was WIA (L). Jacob's claimed a Dolphin in return but no loss. No time or loc's for Js 7 data - but area of ops match.

So like the majority of RFC/RNAS/RAF aces there is some meat on the bones of their claims and if we had a fuller German record I'm sure there would be more. By my reconing the present wisdom in the Grub St corpus represents about 60 % of the real picture.

Reference Bishop. I took a hard look at his claims a long time back. 49 of his 72 were claimed when he was separated from his companions or on lone missions. The remaining 13 break down to: 5 Dest (2 shared) and 8 OOC - which in my view is the true worth of the man. My suspicion is that behind the boastful exterior, he had the 'wind up' and often funked out, using the claims of successful airfights to mask his failures of courage. Having said that he may well have wounded Paul Billik on 1 Jun 18.

Cheers to all

Russ

[Taz]

28Sep18 Ltn Poss scored his 9th victory over Sopwith Dolphin #C.8115, 87 Sqn. RAF, 2/Lt. D.A. Thomson, POW 17.45 W. Roulers

28Sep18 Flgmstr Bühl scored his 4th victory over Sopwith Dolphin #F.6020, 79 Sqn. RAF, Lt R J Morgan, POW 17.45 Roulers.

No losses for MFJ IV.

5Oct18 Oblt Auffarth scored his 23rd victory over D.H.9 #D.560, 206 Sqn. RAF, Lt. C.J. Knight, POW & 2/Lt. J.H. Perring, POW 8.30 Aelbeeke

Oblt Harald Auffarth is forced to land in Fokker D.VII 387/18 after his combat with the above D.H. 9.

Nothing to do with Gillet.

8Oct18 Uffz Eigenbrodt scored his 3rd victory over Sopwith Camel #D.1868, 210 Sqn. RAF, 2/Lt. C.F. Pineau, POW. Reported shot down by Fokker Dr.I in Camel File.

8Oct18 Uffz August Eigenbrodt is lightly WIA. Quite a step from crashed and burned.

8Oct18 Ltn Jacobs claimed and was credited with a balloon, no Dolphin claim made.


Taz
Terry Phillips

[alex_revell]

A Z Aviator
Its not surprising that people researching forty odd years ago should sometimes be more accurate than more modern publications. They were using primary sources.

[R Gannon]

Alex

Yeah people who treat the Grub St corpus as gospel, particularly in regards who got who, risk routinely being shot down in flames.

Have taken notes.

As Arnie said: 'I'll be back'

Russ

[R Gannon]

Taz

Reference your post 14.

WRONG - 2Lt Morgan left at 12.30 and was last seen low down ground attacking near Staden - far too early for MFJ 4 fight; and likely victim of ground fire.

WRONG - 2Lt Thompson was last seen near Cambrai which is som 80km south of Roulers.

Pays to look further that 'Above the Lines' and 'Jasta War Chronicle' as they are full of hasty conclusions in regards who got who.

Once these simple truth dawn on you, then you will see my appraisal of the 79 Sqn v MFJ 4 fight is correct. You need to grasp that near on 40 % of German claims are not 'worth a bucket of warm spit' if you are looking for an Allied plane crashed or even FTL.

As for that tiresome Germanophile refrain:that there were no German losses - I never said MFJ 4 incurred any serious damage, but I would draw your attention to an anecdote that I got off Russ Guest. While searching in the files of the Australian War Memorial he found a report by the commander of a certain Flieger Abtielung facing the Aussies on 8 Aug 18 - The Black Day of the German Army - it recorded that in the evening at 2000, both Ltn Gutche & Ltn Waldheim of Js 36 made forced landings near the FAA airfield after a fight with British aircraft (24 Sqn?). Now you will not find this in the Grub St corpus, or in Stephen Lawson's otherwise informative Js 36 history (C&C GB). But what we have is a clear window, that the present wisdom in regards German losses is well short of the true picture. So you cannot dismiss the possibility that MFJ 4 may have had like forced landings.

5 Oct 18 - I'm interested to know how you can dismiss the Gillet proposal out of hand. Is it because it is written up that way in ATL? Do you known the genesis of the Clayton Knight v Aufffarth connection? Did you get a nudge from on high? Well for your education; 10 DH9's of 206 Sqn bombed Courtrai in 2 formations of 5. As seemingly always the German fighters attacked the British a/c on the homeward leg. The Js 29 Fokkers concentrating on the rear machines of the rear formation of 5. Gillet and his wingman went to the aid of one of these two DH9's, either D560 or B7678. That Auffarth got D560 is not in doubt - a copy of his CR still exists - but the connection that Knight downed him in return is in truth a little ambigous and as such the Gillet connection cannot be dismissed on a whim.

Correction to my first, two DH9's from the first formation of 5 were hit by Flak and FTL Brit lines. None the less Js 29 were awarded 4 DH9's!!!!

8 Oct 18 - You say that Eigenbrodt's vic # 3 was the 'Camel' of 2Lt Pineau of 210 Sqn. Well 'Jasta Pilots' gives his victim as a Dolphin, so does JWC and it is listed that way in the Js 7 list in Lawson's article on Jacobs (C&C GB)!!!!! Similarly the latter, lists Jacob's vic # 42 as a Dolphin on 8 Oct. ATL and JWC give vic #42 as a Camel on 7 Oct 18, but surviving German docs for Oct 18 are anthing but precise. For my money Pineau - a native of Albuquerque by the way - was shot down by Js 51 by either Berr or Plauth. You should track down 'In the Clouds of Glory' for his account of this fight.

As for your : "....Eigenbrodt is lightly wounded. Quite a astep from crashed and burned" DG Lewis; MvR's 80th, walked away from being shot down in flames. von Hippel of Js 5, survived loosing a wing in combat and ending up with his Alb DV 2065/17 on its back (victim 84 Sqn). I could fill pages of such escapes. You are really showing your limitations, with that type of denial.

Looking forward to your next foray into who got who.

Russ

[Gregvan]

Hi All,

I hesitate to re-enter this now-contentious thread. However, for the benefit of all, here is what Dr. James J. Hudson (and Pineau himself) had to say about Pineau's downing on 8 October 1918, in Hudson's book In Clouds of Glory:

(Hudson)..."Lt. Cleo Francis Pineau's last flight was on 8 October, just before the Allied armies took Ostend. Fifteen planes from No. 210 Sqn were sent out on offensive patrol. They were in 3 layers of 5 each, and Pineau was in the top formation. At 9:23 A.M., Lt Pineau was seen to attack a Fokker D-7 some four miles east of Roulers and 'the enemy machine fell out of control and crashed.' When Pineau began to climb back to help his formation in their duel with some 15 enemy fighters,

(Pineau wrote): "every enemy plane seemed to dive at me at once. One sent a tracer bullet over my left shoulder which destroyed my left gun and instrument board. Another hit my right side, breaking my control. One underneath wrecked my motor, and that settled it. I began to fall and lost consciousness. In dropping from such a height, the flyer usually dies of suffocation caused by being unable to inhale air into his lungs, due to the vacuum caused by the rapidity of his descent. I don't know what saved me, but when I came to I was uninjured, but a prisoner in the hands of of the Huns."

End of story.

Greg

[Scott]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Pineau - a native of Albuquerque by the way

Pineau was born, died and buried in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.