Was Gillet that good?

meissner · 17 May 2008, 03:37 AM

I am looking at the

Francis Gillet blurb in the aces section and I see that, of the 17 planes he shot down, 14 were DVIIs. 14! Was he flying a Dolphin for all of them? Wasn't the DVII supposed to be the best of the best? It looks like three of them were on Nov 10, 1918. Was he going up against low time replacements? Have I had too much coffee? AM I asking too many questions?

The Dolphin was a bit faster than the DVII. How did it compare in other areas?

Jeff

TomVrille · 17 May 2008, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meissner

I am looking at the

Francis Gillet blurb in the aces section and I see that, of the 17 planes he shot down, 14 were DVIIs. 14! Was he flying a Dolphin for all of them? ...

Hi Jeff

According to Dolphin and Snipe Aces of World War 1, Capt F. W. Gillet logged 17 aircraft and 3 kite balloons, all 20 victories scored flying the Dolphin.

Don't worry about asking multi-part questions. It gives more people a chance to put their 2 cents worth in!

Taz · 17 May 2008, 10:17 AM

Jeff- One of the amazing things about Gillet's score is that his victims were all destroyed. There were no OOCs or FTLs in his list. The Fokker D.VII was probably the best all-around fighter aircraft of WWI, but it was also flown by tons of inexperienced pilots late in the war. The Dolphin was fast, strong, and heavily armed and a formidable opponent. With an aggressive and highly competent pilot who could shoot, like Gillet, an unaggressive and mediocre pilot in a D.VII was a good target. In most wars, 90% of the damage is done by 10% of the pilots, with many just trying to stay alive the best way they can. Fighting Fokker D.VIIs of JG I was different from fighting the Fokker D.VIIs of Jasta 78, for instance. Even in the elite units like JG I,

LvR complained late in the war about most of their pilots being more in the way than a help.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Soderbaum · 17 May 2008, 03:39 PM

Hi

The validity of allied clams and victories(French) have been discussed many times on this Forum.

In general did around 20 % of the allied "claims" of destroyed resulted in a loss an German a/c....

But on the British side you have flyers like McCudden were nearly 100 % of his claims of destroyed actually resulted in a German loss of an a/c. On the other side you have flyers like Bishop that 0 % of his claims of destroyed a/c resulted in a German loss of an a/c....

In my opinion its likely that Gillet belonged to the Bishop category..

However it should be noted that the allied claims of ooc/probably actually in 2 to 3 % resulted in a German loss...

Gregvan · 17 May 2008, 04:14 PM

Hi,

I was waiting for someone like Gunnar to point out exactly what he did. I have no doubt that 'Razors' Gillet was a very courageous and skillful fighter pilot, and that in the hands of a good pilot the Sopwith Dolphin was capable of matching a Fokker D.VII. However, I would also imagine that at least some of Gillet's "14 D.VII" claims did not actually result in the destruction of a D.VII or of its pilot. The authors of "Above the Trenches" presented no victories of Gillet which could be matched with the loss of a German airman. I'm also sure that our friends such as Alex Revell and Russ Gannon will point out that there were many instances of a German aircraft being shot down or very badly damaged, but since the pilot escaped unharmed there is no matching German record of a "loss" which corresponds with a particular Allied claim (this may be particularly true of the last months of the war when German airmen were sometimes saved by parachutes).

It's also worth noting a discrepancy between the narrative (about Gillet) given in the classic "Above the Trenches" and in the associated victory list. The narrative states that, "He claimed a two-seater on 4 November, and on the 10th a Halberstadt two-seater and two D VIIs that collided and were destroyed. This raised his score to 20 destroyed, three of them balloons." Yet, in the accompanying victory list (which, I presume, is the source of the listing on this site) the November 4th victory is noted as a Fokker D VII. Also, Gillet's three claims on November 10th are also noted as three D VIIs, instead of the Halberstadt two-seater and two D.VIIs as stated in the narrative. So which is correct? It would seem that at least two of the "14 D.VIIs" were actually in fact, claims for two-seaters.

Gillet may have indeed contributed to a collision between two D.VIIs recorded on 10 November, but again that may have been a fortunate incident which contributed to his score. He certainly wasn't alone in this. On 19 August 1918,

Josef Mai of Jasta 5 was firing at two Bristols of No. 48 Squadron, and "The phosphorus trails had caused one aircraft to try to avoid them, and at the same time both aircraft collided. A double victory for me." There were many other similar incidents on both sides.

Greg

AZ Aviator · 17 May 2008, 04:41 PM

Jeff - The Aerodrome misspelled Gillet's first name, which is "Frederick," although he was known as 'Warren' to his WWI flying mates. Finding an error in the 'Aces' section doesn't surprise me. For instance your namesake,

James Meissner, has one notable error in his 'Aces' bio, that being his victory of 1 August 1918, which incorrectly indicates he flew a Nieuport 28, whereas he was actually flying SPAD XIII S.15030 when he scored that victory. Anyway, yes, Warren Gillet was that good, and it primarily stems from his shooting ability. As Stewart K. Taylor said in his Over The Front article A Study in Contrasts, Captains Gillet and Lord et al. 79 Squadron RAF, Vol. 4, No. 4, Winter 2006, "While his flying skill would remain essentially pedestrian, his nerves and desire were unshakable, his marksmanship supurb." Stew Taylor actually interviewed Gillet on 28 March 1969. Another amazing thing about Gillet was that once he started scoring, he scored all of his victories within a three-month period, the last full three months of the war. Note that in Gillet's aerial combat of 10 November 1918, in which he scored three Fokker D.VII victories, he was credited for the two D.VIIs that collided in mid-air and were destroyed. This occurred just 5 minutes after he had just scored his 18th victory. Another factor that led to some Gillet victories was that his 'A' Flight Commander, Capt. Ladd, had great leadership but inept fighting capabilities. Ladd would always lead the charge onto the Fokker formations they encountered, and then would peel away, allowing Gillet, who flew on either side and just behind Ladd, to have first crack with his guns. He was an expert at deflection firing. What was unique about Gillet scoring so many victories was that he never actually led any combat patrols and was always a wingman. If you're familiar with typical RAF fighter squadrons in that time frame, flight commanders and their deputies scored the preponderance of victories. 79 Squadron also liked to play tricks on the opposition and wasn't adverse to using a 48 Sqdn. Bristol Fighter as 'bait' to draw in some Fokkers. Was the Dolphin faster than the D.VII? That point was moot relative to Gillet mastering rate of speed, climb, distance and angle between his Dolphin and D.VIIs he encountered. As a consequence Gillet was able to catch and shoot down some D.VIIs fleeing aerial engagements that otherwise might have gotten away from more average pilots. He seemed to mesh with the Dolphin's strengths. I have pretty good familiarity with Stew Taylor's OTF article, since I was the one who transcribed Stew's original hand-written notes and assembled the article for submission to OTF. Check it out...it's still readily available from the League of WWI Aviation Historians on their website.

AZ Aviator · 17 May 2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Greg,
I agree with your assessment re: the dilemma of discrepancies in "Above the Trenches." However, earlier sources are equally confusing, e.g., the 79 Squadron History ("Nothing Can Stop Us" by Wayne R. Braby) published in Cross & Cockade Journal USA, Vol. 5, No. 2, Summer 1964, indicates Gillet's victory of 4 November was over a DFW, not a Fokker D.VII, and then states that this was Gillet's last confirmed victory of the war! On the other hand, Jon Guttman agreed that it was a DFW in his "Plumage of the Warbirds" article in C & C Journal USA, Vol. 21, No. 2, Summer 1980. He then said that on 10 Novermber Gillet "shot down three enemy scouts, although none of these were officially confirmed." From this account I would think that the "Above The Trenches" database list showing a "Fokker D.VII" for victory #18 is more accurate than Gillet's narrative indicating "a Halberstadt two-seater," because the victory claims are only 5 minutes apart, implying an engagement with only Fokker D.VIIs. However, the source of victory confirmations for 10 November appears to be Gillet's own combat report, which apparently made its way into the 11 Wing RAF Summary. Since wing summaries are usually grouped as an Appendix to a War Diary, it appears that "Above The Trenches" has essentially accepted Gillet's combat report and subsequent 11 Wing Summary account of the aerial combat that occurred on 10 November. In that respect Guttman and Braby are both correct in that Gillet's last three victories were not listed in an RAF Communique and, thus, are not "official" victories. At the same time I wonder whether the "Above The Trenches" authors accepted Gillet's last three victories, perhaps because the requisite RAF Communique that might have accepted these "victories" simply wasn't published post-war, so they gave Gillet the benefit of the doubt? So yeah, Soderbaum (and you) could very well be correct in your assessments. What I find interesting about this dilemma is that we usually think of more modern sources, like "Above The Trenches," to be most accurate, whereas earlier sources like Guttman and Braby may well have had these records sorted out more accurately more than 40 years ago! To me it's unfortunate that now I'll start looking more closely at confirmation sources in "Above The Trenches" before I make any assumptions regarding pilots' confirmed victories listed therein.

Taz · 17 May 2008, 09:24 PM

Amazing. Even the destroyed claims of some members of the RFC/RAF were not, to quote Garner, worth a bucket of warm spit. I always gave the "destroyed" claims more credence than the OOCs or FTLs, but apparently without much justification. Have to watch it or I will start believing the claims of F.2B observers. The only group who overclaimed more than them was 8th AF gunners in WWII.

Taz
Terry Phillips