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Old 5 July 2008, 10:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Greims Tank Victory

I was recently reading alex Imries Osprey title on German Fighter Units June 1917-1918. On pages 34-35 he describes an Air to ground engagement between Greim, Putz, and a couple of British tanks. Imrie concludes his story of the engagement with: "Both tanks were hors de combat. One became the seventh victory for Putz, while the other was number twenty-three on Oblt. Greim's victory list."
A quick look at the forums Aces section shows no such victory as number 23 or any number for that matter. My questions are:1. Was this indeed as Imrie stated credited in WW1 by the Germans? 2.If so is the list on the Drome aces section a revised list? and finally,3.Were there any others such as Udet who were known to have engaged Tanks that were credited with Air to ground victories?
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Old 5 July 2008, 02:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Aircraft victories.

RAGIII:
As far as I know, destroying, trucks, tanks, trains were not counted as aerial victories. On none of the German lists in the Nachrichtenblatt record any victories but aircraft and balloons in the air, nothing on the ground.
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Old 6 July 2008, 12:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
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RAGIII,

I can not see that Imrie is saying "aerial victory" in your quotation!
He is only writing "victories" and the term "victories" can include airplanes, balloons, airships, ships, tanks etc. etc.

Note, both men got offical confirmation for the destruction of a tank (see Nachrichtenblatt).
The victories against the tanks happened on 23 August 1918.

So it was Greim´s 23 victory (22 aerial victories and 1 tank destroyed).
And it was Pütz 8 victory (aerial victory number 7 on 22 August plus 1 tank destroyed on 23 August). However, if Pütz got the confirmation for the tank on 23 August earlier than for his aerial victory of 22 August then it could have been victory number 7 in the order of confirmation.

The lists mentioned by DSA in the Nachrichtenblatt are Abschusslisten only for aerial victories of airmen. However, the Nachrichtenblatt reported also the confirmation of the two destroyed tanks.
The pilots would get entries in their documents and it is possible that Greim had a tank destroyed listed on "position 23".

Remember the German Marineflieger (Navy aviators) - some had "mixed" victory lists of destroyed airpanes and ships.

Agreed?

PS: For your question 3 look at
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/20...er-g-nter.html
This action of the aircrew was also reported in the (daily) "Heeresbericht" because it was seen as an important example of determined tank hunting.
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Old 6 July 2008, 07:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Bonjour mes amis

The victory over the the armoured vehicle was not listed in the Nachrichtenblatt. When, however, compiling the service record of Robert Greim, following the cessation of hostilities, for consideration of the Knight's Cross of the Military Max-Joseph Order the vehicle attacked on August 23, 1918 was listed as a victory by Bavarian authorities. It was decided that the airman qualified for the distinction, as no matter what Prussian records may have listed, according to those determining the facts for Bavaria von Greim had 30 aerial victories as well as one over a tank and thus the title of Ritter was awarded.

By the way, following the war, Rudolf Stark created a remarkable painting of the incident.

Salut!
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Old 6 July 2008, 08:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Kirk,

the Nachrichtenblatt did report about the tank destruction (look at Nachrichtenblatt der Luftstreitkräfte, 2. Jahrgang, page 428!) but there was never a list about tank destructions by airplanes published and the normal Abschussliste in NB includes only aerial victories.
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Last edited by rammjaeger; 6 July 2008 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 6 July 2008, 04:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I appreciate the answers! Many thanks,
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Old 6 July 2008, 04:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Perhaps the tank victories could be inserted into the Aerodrome lists without numbering them. This would recognize the victories, and put them in sequence, while the numbers would still conform to the normal Abschussliste.

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Old 7 July 2008, 01:16 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Good idea, Steve!

I forgot to mention NB reported the tank fight of Greim/Pütz at least two times. The second was a more detailed report but I am too busy to search for the stuff.
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Old 11 July 2008, 06:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Greim's Tank Victory of 23 August 1918

Gentlemen:
Over The Front, Vol. 17, No. 3, Fall 2002, contains a great article by none other than Hptm.a.D Robert Ritter von Greim, titled During the Defensive Battle on the Somme, and translated by O'Brien Browne. The incident discussed herein is vividly described on pp. 258-259. Rudolf Stark's painting that you mentioned, of Obltn. Robert von Greim's Fokker D.VII assaulting British tanks on 23 August 1918, is on the front cover. This issue, edited by Greg VanWyngarden, won the award for "Best Edited Issue" for 2002 and all articles concern German aviation. It's a can't miss issue and should be on everyone's shelves! For those of you who don't already have this one, copies are still available via Over The Front's website.
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Old 11 July 2008, 07:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Does anyone have the details as to exactly where these actions occurred, date, times, type of tank and serial numbers/markings (hopefully), nature of action etc. As I would like to see if this can be matched up to Tank Corp records. It would be wise to do this before anyone goes altering scores etc.

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