Sorting Myth from Fact- The Aces.

[rexee]

You just never know though,do you? Seems to me that after the War no German was involved in any of it... just following orders

[Billy_Bishop]

Originally Posted by rexee

You just never know though,do you? Seems to me that after the War no German was involved in any of it... just following orders

The SS ran the concentration camps, not the Wehrmacht, nor the Luftwaffe, nor the Kriegsmarine.

But our people just followed orders too, when they put all the Japanese-Americans in concentration camps, here, the USA.

[rexee]

And the SS who ran the camps were the first to shred their SS uniforms and become Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine ,farmers or whatever it took to blend in, I think that's pretty common knowledge
Your absolutely right about the shameful internment of Japanese Americans[by the way, I'm Canadian] but I find it hard to compare that with mass genocide
I hope this isn't straying too far off topic

[RussGannon]

To all.

I remember on the 60th aniverserary of D-Day in 2004 seeing a distinguished German gent (clearly a WW2 vet) in one of the many British graveyards wearing what looked to be an RK whilst laying a wreath on one of the German burials - quite a large number were buried in Brit / Can graveyards along side their former foe's. Wish I knew who he was.

Just a point of detail for all:

I know its common to allude to the German Army as the Wehrmacht, but this is incorrect - the Wehrmacht comprised the Luffwafe, Kreigsmarine, the Waffen SS and the Heer - the correct term for the German Army.

OKW for example was the supreme command, whilst OKH was the command of the Army - though in practice the OKW very much waged the war against the West, whilst OKH was responsible for the Eastern Front.

Cheers Russ

[rexee]

Just as a final thought. My grandfather was RAF WW 1. My father was RCAF WW2. My mother a nursing sister WW2. One uncle was in the Royal Navy WW2 another a navigator in a Lancaster etc etc and today I'm happy to report I'm married to a wonderful German gal and have great extended family in Germany.
Life is interesting isn't it!

[Bruno Stachel]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

....I remember on the 60th aniverserary of D-Day in 2004 seeing a distinguished German gent (clearly a WW2 vet) in one of the many British graveyards wearing what looked to be an RK whilst laying a wreath on one of the German burials - quite a large number were buried in Brit / Can graveyards along side their former foe's. Wish I knew who he was.

Russ, I wonder if it was Hans von Luck. Hans von Luck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I seem to recall him being the only German vet invited to the D-Day commemorations. But I believe it was for the 50th anniversary. He died in 1997.

In his book Panzer Commander, I remember him mentioning a number of times how chivalrous the British could be on the battle field. During the German retreat in North Africa, a Hurricane buzzed a German vehicle, waving off it's occupants before destroying it on his next path. A gesture he never forgot.

[rammjaeger]

If one really reads German original sources then you will note the following:

According to German law of 1935 the Wehrmacht included Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. In 1939 the Waffen-SS was formed but was not (and never became) an offical part of the Wehrmacht. The Waffen-SS was a different organisation, part of Himmler´s SS and and acted autonomous!

However, for practical reasons the Waffen-SS was put under command of the Wehrmacht for tactical and operative Warfare. (that is a different matter - it means not to be a part of the Wehrmacht!)

There was a permanent rivalry between Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS because the Wehrmacht tried to keep their privileges against the Waffen-SS and was afraid of plans to replace the traditional Wehrmacht by an Army of political and racial SS-warriors.

If once more an aviation topic turns into WWII history then correct, please.

[Billy_Bishop]

I'm with Rammjaeger on this one. That's how I understood the German military was organized in WWII. When you think about it, a strange situation where a political party has it's own private army that's sanctioned by the government.

[Catfish]

Hello,
this has somehow become a very good thread!

One last time mentioning WW2, and being a bit cynical: It is a bad joke in Germany that the highest casualties of the SA, SS and the former government of the "Third Reich" really happened after the war. Suddenly all people that ever committed atrocities during this time mysteriously "vanished" from the official lists, apparently they must have all suffered a sudden, inexplicable death.

Inded a lot of those people became part of the new german government after the war - often with the secret approval of the US or British government - if only because those old and new managers were the ones who knew how to run things in a destroyed country ...

This is by the way why there were those student revolts from 1968 on in Germany - a lot of the professors and politicians of the time turned out to have a certain foretime, and the new students were all else but delighted to discover it. This even led to a hate towards the U.S. inofficially supporting old Nazis - because the USSR had become the new enemy.

There is a peasant, tearing carrots out of the soil. Comes a man strolling, and asks "What are you doing there?"
And the peasant:
"De-nazification - i am pulling out the small ones, so the others grow bigger!"

Hrrm.

Greetings,
Kai

[Pete Hill]

G'Day, Kai,

that is interesting, well-said. The De-Nazification process reminds me of the often two-faced, even gutless hypocrisy that has happened since the war in both the UK and my own country, not to mention the 'selective' memory process.
Many of the Politicians, Commentators and Public Figures in both Britain and Australia openly and eagerly clapped their hands and loudly supported the Allied Bombing Offensive. Strangely enough as soon as the war ended and aerial photographs revealed the extent of the destruction of German cities, many of them were suddenly 'De-Bombing-Supporterized'.
Its quite odd how so many of them quickly claimed "Not me, I was against the Bombing Campaign all along!"
I can fully understand the bitterness and bewilderment of many of the surviving air-crew of RAF Bomber Command who returned from the war to suddenly be greeted with hostile dis-approval from morally indignant civilians- the very same civilians who had blood-thirstily cheered for more German blood when the war was still going on.
Likewise with Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War. When the decision was reached to withdraw Australian troops from Vietnam, the majority of the Australian Politicians who had supported our involvement in the war in-explicably 'dis-appeared'. All-of-a-sudden, most of them were now saying "I was against the war the whole time, I was down on the lawn in front of Parliament House with all of the other Aussie-Hippies!"
Not to mention the fact that during the late 1930s, a very significant number of supposedly- well educated and influential Australians actually thought Adolf Hitler was doing a fine job, including (allegedly) soon-to-be Prime Minister Robert Menzies. And on the other side of politics, many more Aussies were big fans of Uncle Joe Stalin right up until his death and beyond. Once again, they all quickly and quietly 'disappeared' when the truth emerged into the cold, hard light of day. I shouldn't be too critical as many, many people have been duped by propoganda and false perceptions. It just sad that there is truth in the old saying-
"the trees that bend with the breeze are the ones that are left standing!"
Just look at Marshall Soult of Napoleonic France who managed to be a loyal supporter of Napoleon, then a devotee of King Louis, then be a supporter of Napoleon again and then be a fan of the Monarchy again! The sad thing is, he managed to be still standing when the whole mess died down whilst his colleagues who had the bravery to stand by their original convictions were the ones who paid the price.
Pete