Sorting Myth from Fact- The Aces.

[redintheskies]

yes, the red baron was shot by an australian gunner. the angle suggests, highly, that he was shot from the ground and NOT by roy brown, who only said that he shot in the GENERAL direction of the red fokker. i got to look it up again, but i think i know which guy shot him. have to pull up the website again.

[RussGannon]

Whilst we are on about myths, Barret raised that Germanophile conviction about MvR being hit by one of his own men on 6 July 17. Now that particular Forum thread had run its course before I became active. But in the short time I have available, I have skimmed through the many posts keen to dismiss .303 involvement. Pointedly even if one was to accept the old CSI of Ed Ferko (which I don't), there was one seminal fact that was overlooked - the rather well documented intervention of 4 Sop Tripes of B Flight 10 Naval - who dived to help the 6 20 Sqn FE's in their uneven dual with upwards of 40 EA. This resulted in one OOC claim by F/C Collishaw, 2 by F/lt Allexander and 1 by FSL Reid. We should also not overlook that MvR's Albatros is also recorded as being badly shot about, which hints to more than just a chance shot.

Another interesting slant is that it is recorded that Ltn Brauneck & Ltn Niederhoff followed the 'master' down - supposedly to mark the spot of his FTL. However here is a point to ponder - the 20 Sqn patrol recorded that they were initially assailed by 8 EA (including the Red machine), others then followed. Pointedly in the evening when Js 11 was want to avenge their 'master' by attacking two far less dangerous Harry Tates - the surviving crew noted that the had been assailed by 5 EA - that is three less than the morning show. Now a mind suspicious as to the incomplete nature of surviving German records, might be tempted to muse as to whether Brauneck and Niederhoff actually made forced landings? Similarly it is known that Wolff had his radiator shot about in his tussel with the 4 Sqn RE's - another forced landing perhaps?

Kirk

Re your post, the said parties will only agree on one thing, and that is to disagree.

Sorry I missed that stress factor post.

Cheers mate.

[Barrett]

Not that it's a biggie to me, but since it's become a recurring theme in this thread, I'll add that my notation of MvR possibly being zapped by his wingman grows out of my larger interest in friendly fire incidents. If that makes me a "germanophile" so be it. (Reportedly my Germanic ancestors emigrated to Britain in the 8th century, where my DNA remained for almost 900 years.)

IIRC the evidence for friendly fire was the location of the hole in vR's helmet, slightly to the rear rawther than in the forward hemisphere.

Teutonically yours,

BT

[redintheskies]

yea, there are a LOT of people who love the red baron, myself included. yes, he was 1 of the greats of the war. however, as my research has me digging deeper, i find that, especially in peter kilduff's book, that mvr was a dedicated military man who only wished to do the best for his men. he was serious, as in never really drank, smoked, etc. he was a hunter too, 1st and foremost, and the air service attracted him in that way because he could hunt, but instead of animals, it was people, the enemy.

he wasn't THE greatest, although people will argue me for me. he sure had a good shot though and i think it might count for a lot of his score. and that's debated too, some saying it went beyond 100 men (and there were some that went uncredited because of such and such a reason, says the books) while other says less than what the official total is. me...i could personally care less. he's just a figure of interest and a character in a fictional story i am writing. i love reading about him, though, and his jokes though...so funny!

the greats, i believe, are everywhere we turn in that war. my main interest, however, is the german air service and because of this (i'm also german too, so i'm getting into the history and language, although ww2 makes me sick, worse than the stuff in ww1) i think their side is the most fascinating and holds some of the best fighter pilots of the war, not just the red baron. i mean, there was his own brother lothar, voss, wolff, rumey, schafer, etc. i can go on, the list is infinite!

[Albatros_Ace]

yes pretty much all of the great airmen pretty much never smoked or drank and i agree with you ww2 makes me sick beside some of the aviation

oh and if MVR then there would be

[Catfish]

Hello,

well concerning drinking or better the absence of it this also seems to be a myth. Even if they probably did not write about it in their official autobiographies there are hints that at least german airmen drank a lot sometimes, if not every day on regular terms.
It has been also said that Voss had a hangover when he made his last flight because of heavy drinking the night before. Sometimes alcohol may have some impact on judging a situation, or even on acting more (or much less) brilliant, if only for a short time .

Re (how i like that "re") the Udet thing, and that he was not as popular - for what i remember from my father (being befriended with Udet) he was well known in the second part of the 1920ies, and certainly the 30ies.
Maybe he was not so well-known during the time of the war(?), but Udet surely became famous in the following years because of his acting in films, his airplane companies and the artistic flight manouevers he performed on flight events internationally.

YouTube - Ernst Udet's amazing landing

, and for shows:

YouTube - Ernst Udet Kunstflug

This is why the Nazis (ab)used him for their propaganda films, and made him "Generalluftzeugmeister", a position he never was up to, even if if may have flattered him.

And re the ...phile thing. Since i am indeed german (maybe even Mr Gannon has some german genes from his ancestors, be it anglian, saxon, or normannic), i hope no one will accuse me of being "germanophile", but let me say i will not necessarily become "anglophobe", or better "australophobe" because an australian uses this word twice in every post.

Thanks and greetings,
Kai

[Albatros_Ace]

i agree that MOST airmen drank heavilly and today would be rated sicotic but barker,boelcke, MVR,bohme,voss,bishop and so on everyone they new said that they never drank

[Barrett]

One of the most straight-forward accounts of Demon Rum in aeronautics is contained in Ed Parsons' marvelous memoir. He stated that "a buzzard" usually knew all the watering holes and kept them in business.

A friend of mine who flew Marauders in The Big One (it was in all the papers) said, "Alcohol fuels all wars."

That was definitely true through Vietnam (of course, recreational pharmaceuticals added to the mix.) But in the AF, next to JP-4, whiskey and red meat were what propelled the guys. That changed almost immediately afterward, to the point now that a DUI can derail a career.

[Albatros_Ace]

i do agree i just had to defend myself

[redintheskies]

it's all right...just pointed out how different the red baron was, how his contemporaries are never mentioned as much as he is and how i love his character. but i think the lack of judgment with him, on april the 21st, was mostly from his head wound and battle fatigue, not from alcohol. i am pretty sure that, although he claims he never does such, that he did, hands down. partying, for such a military man, must have happened at some point as the men at the jastas were known for jokes and extreme alcohol use.