Sorting Myth from Fact- The Aces.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Immo & Kirk

Kirk

- however it was Lt O'Brien with the front Vickers and not Lt Dickson with with the Lewis.

Russ

Russ!

Zut! I was concentrating on that propellor and imagined Dickson firing away ... wrong ... if anyone did that it was E.S. Langton in the aircraft being pursued by Festner. Thank you for pointing that out Russ.

I look forward to the future submission regarding Karl-Emil Schäfer. The recording of dates can cause confusion with all records, though due to the incomplete data at hand, particularly with German sources. I note that even in the topic we are discussing, the death of Festner, which some sources note as having been on April 23 ...

Salut!
Kirk

[RussGannon]

Kirk & any other open minded enthusiast.

In 'The Red Baron' translated by Peter Kilduff there is a reminicance by LvR - 'Schaefer saves my life.' In brief whilst flying together with two other Js 11 pilots they attempt to draw 5 'deep bodied' British 2-seaters into a combat on the German side. Having no success, LvR dives on a lone Brit machine working below and pursues it back across Brit lines. Realizing that a combat over the Brit side could see him force land, he breaks off the pursuit and heads for the safety of German lines, where upon he is attacked by one of the 'deep bodied' 2-seaters. The Brit machine is able to shoot away his control cables and closes in for the kill. At this dire moment, Schaefer dives to the rescue and shoots the Brit machine down in flames.

Now no date is given for this episode, but I am convinced it relates to 25 Apr 17. My take is that the 5 'deep bodied' 2-seaters were a flight of 48 Sqn Bristols and that the machine attacked by LvR was a 10 Sqn BE2. On the evening of this date, the crew of Lt Kann & 2Lt Bousfield reported being attacked by 5 to 6 'Red' Albatross - Kann was WIA and their BE2 A2892 crash landed Brit lines but unsalvable. My take is that the 48 Sqn crew of 2Lt Clifford & 2Lt Tomkies then attacked LvR and were in turn shot down by Schaefer - his 23rd vic - Rouex Station at 2010 GT. My further suspicion is that the 48 Sqn crew of Lt Price & Lt Benjamin then attacked Schaefer - Albatros Scout crashed E Arras 1900 BT!!! That this is the Schaefer crash landing recorde by MvR but dated - I believe incorrectly - to 22 Apr 17. It needs to be pointed out that this was after pursuing and shooting a Brit machine down in flames over the Brit side!

Now the informed enthusiast will know that the accepted wisdom is that this implied his 21 st vic recorded as downed NW Monchy at 2020 GT on 22 Apr 17. The trouble is that this does not match any British loss! There is also some confusion as to the type claimed - Natrichtemblatt does not state type, whilst both BE & FE are recorded in Grub St corpus. It is also worth pointing out that the time / location data for vic 21 is almost a mirror of vic 23!!!! Roeux Station is effectively NW Monchy. Equalliy interesting is an earlier fight on 22 Apr 17 between Js 11 and 6 FE's of 11 Sqn, in which four FE's were brought down, but surprisingly there are only two German claims - by MvR and Wolff. My feeling being that Schaefer actually brought down one of the 11 Sqn machines, but somehow his claim data for 25 Apr has found its way into the 22 Apr record. Possibly to accomodate the MvR dating perhaps???

If I am correct then Schaefer was downed on 25 Apr and by Price & Benjamin of 48 Sqn. The MvR account relates that Schaefer came under intense ground fire but the moment of truth "...suddenly there was a loud noise and my engine stopped.." is open enough to allow for a shot from above and behind.

Would be interested in any comments. However we have a Public Holiday this week end so I won't be able to respond to any feedback until next week.

Cheers Russ.

[Immo_Frese]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

... My further suspicion is that the 48 Sqn crew of Lt Price & Lt Benjamin then attacked Schaefer - Albatros Scout crashed E Arras 1900 BT!!! That this is the Schaefer crash landing recorde by MvR but dated - I believe incorrectly - to 22 Apr 17. It needs to be pointed out that this was after pursuing and shooting a Brit machine down in flames over the Brit side!

Now the informed enthusiast will know that the accepted wisdom is that this implied his 21 st vic recorded as downed NW Monchy at 2020 GT on 22 Apr 17. The trouble is that this does not match any British loss! There is also some confusion as to the type claimed - Natrichtemblatt does not state type, whilst both BE & FE are recorded in Grub St corpus. It is also worth pointing out that the time / location data for vic 21 is almost a mirror of vic 23!!!! Roeux Station is effectively NW Monchy. Equalliy interesting is an earlier fight on 22 Apr 17 between Js 11 and 6 FE's of 11 Sqn, in which four FE's were brought down, but surprisingly there are only two German claims - by MvR and Wolff. My feeling being that Schaefer actually brought down one of the 11 Sqn machines, but somehow his claim data for 25 Apr has found its way into the 22 Apr record. Possibly to accomodate the MvR dating perhaps???

If I am correct then Schaefer was downed on 25 Apr and by Price & Benjamin of 48 Sqn. The MvR account relates that Schaefer came under intense ground fire but the moment of truth "...suddenly there was a loud noise and my engine stopped.." is open enough to allow for a shot from above and behind.

Would be interested in any comments. However we have a Public Holiday this week end so I won't be able to respond to any feedback until next week.

Cheers Russ.

Hello Russ,

well, may be there was no "hard kill" at all in the evening hours of 22 Apr 1917, therefore no corresponding loss. Schäfer may have claimed a british plane near the ground and obviously his claim was accepted. In my opinion a german example for "overclaiming".

But I have some doubts regarding your suspicion that Schäfer had his forced landing on 25 Apr instead of 22 Apr. The reason is a letter he wrote home to his parents dated 23 Apr 1917. He wrote the following:

"Beim letzten Abschuss gestern abend nach 8 Uhr jenseits der Linien wurde mir in ganz geringer Höhe über Monchy von Erd-Maschinen-Gewehren der Motor zerschossen, mit dem Erfolg, dass ich zwischen den Linien 50 - 60 Meter vor den englischen Schützenlöchern landete ..."

My translation:
When I shot down my last englishman yesterday evening around 8 pm west of the lines my motor was hit by ground fire and I was forced to land my machine in no-mans-land only 50 -60 metres in front of the british foxholes...

Schäfer took cover in a shell hole until the night an managed to reach the german lines around 5 am on the morning of 23 Apr.

His letters home were published by his father in early 1918 under the title "Vom Jäger zum Flieger. Tagebuchblätter und Briefe vom Leutnant Schäfer."


Immo

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour Immo et Russ

It would be most interesting to read that collection of letters written by Karl Emil Schäfer. The particular letter of April 23, 1917 confirms the action described in the book by Manfred von Richthofen. The tale of Schäfer returning from being brought down between the lines has a genuine air, unlike some passages in the memoir, and may well have been a summary dated, written and given to von Richthofen or an official report that was quoted.

The combat of April 25 involving 48 Squadron may well have been against Jasta 11 ... the R.F.C. Communiqué for the day notes that "Lts W T Price & M A Benjamin, 48 Squadron destroyed a German aeroplane" and while Jasta 11 recorded no corresponding casualty an aircraft may, perhaps, have been forced to land or endured some other fate exclusive of injury to or fatality of the pilot. Could that have been Schäfer? If so is there any relevant information from a German source ... another letter Immo?

Schäfer, apparently, assumed command of Jasta 28w on April 26.

Lothar von Richthofen does offer some information that may determine the date that Schäfer i

[RussGannon]

Immo & Kirk

On the face of it your letter would seem to seal it. As long as Schaefer's father was not attempting to syncronise with MvR's book. As the event, as recorded in MvR's book, would have been well known to the German public.

On that line, I can't help feeling the unreconcilled 11 Sqn losses are more convincing as Schaefer's 22 Apr victim, than the none starter of 8 PM 22 Apr.

Actually those letters sound interseting - in my master log I have it from various scources that Schaefer made other forced landings on 9 Mar 17 & I think 28 May 17. Are these confirmed in his letters?

Cheers Russ

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Immo et Russ

Franks and Giblin, in Under The Guns Of The German Aces, state that the action in which Lothar von Richthofen was saved by Karl Emil Schäfer occurred on April 25 and involved F.E.2bs of 25 Squadron the attackers and ultimate victims being G. Pawley and C.V. Darnell flying A837.

I wonder ... would a F.E.2 be considered a "deep-fuselage" aircraft?

Russ, Schäfer is known to have been forced to land on the following occasions; 9th of March following combat with F.E.8 aircraft of 40 Squadron (as was Manfred von Richthofen), 4th of April, at Roucourt, sustaining injury; and, it would seem after all on the 22nd of April. Yes those letters would be interesting to read. Schäfer appears to have been very much a genuine airman and possessed quite a sense of humour.

Kirk

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Zut! Gunned down mid sentence! Half the post (184) I wrote seems to have disappeared!

I will have to make all of the arcane Lothar von Richthofen references again.

Kirk

[RussGannon]

Kirk

Have not seen 'Under the Guns of the Aces.' Will have a look at my log re 25 Sqn, but don't recall having any enthusiasm for a connection with them. MvR was downed on 6 Mar 17 not 9 Mar 17 - see 'Under the Guns of the Baron' - combat with 40 Sqn & 43 Sqn. Its actually a bit of my research, which Franks' never bothered to acknowledge.

Yeah I think Schaefer was the goods as a fighter pilot - I have a 1 Sqn CR by Atkinson which bares that out - so too the official account of the 20 Sqn crew who shot him down. None the less, he like petty well every other German pilot of any longevity, had more than a few forced landings along the way - makes you wonder how they would have gone, if they had to fight offensive patrols over the oppoasite side of the lines, as the British had to.

Cheers Russ

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Immo et Russ

Prior to interference on the astral plane I had submitted on a previous post reference to comments made by Lothar von Richthofen in reference to the action by Schäfer.

In the brief memoir written von Richthofen included the following passage: "For my tenth victory, I had received an autographed picture of my brother. This was just three days before the morning Schäfer came to my rescue. In the afternoon I shot down number eleven near Vimy ...".

The 10th victory (believed to have been B.E.2g A2876 with a crew of C.M. Crowe and E.T. Turner) was sent down on the 23rd of April, 1917 ... three days following, the 26th was when the 11th victory (believed to have been B.E.2c 2826 with a crew of W.S. Spence and W.A. Campbell). So, according to the writing of von Richthofen the date that Schäfer came to the rescue as it were would be the 26th of April. That date was, apparently, when Schäfer was officially assigned to take command of Jasta 28w, and seems to have been the day the Hohenzollern cross arrived and the Pour le Mérite awarded ... quite a day if all true!

Whether Schäfer have flown with Jasta 11 on the 26th of April when assignment to Jasta 28w officially began I do not know. The topic we are discussing highlights the difficulties of determining just when events occurred what with incomplete official records and reliance on human memory which one may be tempted to discount yet must consider. Bloody April by Morris, for an instance, notes the night Schäfer spent in the trenches as being over April 20th and 21st ... simply an error or was there a specific reason for such dating?

Time is relative and that is unfortunate for the Great War aviation enthusiast. So there I too am confusing issues by referring to sources that note Manfred von Richthofen as forced to land on the 9th of March rather than the 6th of March ... right, flying the different Albatross that day. Good work Russ ... too bad you are one of the unknown on the memorial, so-to-speak for that work.

Speaking of work I had best be off ... Salut!
Kirk

[RussGannon]

Kirk

Yes things look pretty fliud reference this event. It is a pitty that the Js 11 KTB has not survived (or been found).

Re your previous post & 25 Sqn on 25 Apr - I feel the Jadgstafflen had been engaging FE's long enough not to use the vague 'deep bodied' 2-seater identifications. You would expect to see - FE, Vickers-2 or Gitterumpf. Similarly the only British 2-seaters who flew around in flight sized formations with aggresive tendancies has to be the 48 Sqn Bristols at this juncture.

None the less the 25 Sqn boys did record one of the attacking Red Albatros having to make a forced landing. But I now confidantly believe the German's force landed far more often than what stands as the present wisdom.

Will take into account your latest & get back to you.

Have that old Morris book packed away in my shed - thought it was pretty good for its time. He did another one on the Independant Force.

Cheers Russ.