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Old 5 November 2008, 08:14 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Did Gontermann receive Max Joseph ???

While thumbing through the aces section, I noticed that Heinrich Gontermann as having received the Max-Joseph. Was this true ??? Wasn't the "MJ" an exclusively Bavarian award and I don't remember ever reading any reference to Ritter von Gontermann. Just curious. TIA.
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Old 5 November 2008, 01:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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He did receive it. As of May 1917, Gonterman had gotten the Pour le Merite, Knight's Cross with Swords of the Hohenzollern House Order, and the Bavarian Order of Max-Joseph. His tally was at a little over 20 kills, if I remember correctly, and at the time, he was flying with Jasta 15.

And no, it was not specially reserved for anyone. It was generally awarded to Bavarians (which gave them the title of "Ritter von"), but many Germans earned it as well (Erich Ludendorff earned it, as a matter of a fact).

If you fought as an ally of theirs, you were eligible for the award.
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Old 7 November 2008, 06:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bettors Pub View Post
While thumbing through the aces section, I noticed that Heinrich Gontermann as having received the Max-Joseph. Was this true ??? Wasn't the "MJ" an exclusively Bavarian award and I don't remember ever reading any reference to Ritter von Gontermann. Just curious. TIA.
Neither Heinrich Gontermann nor Erich Ludendorff received the Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden. The information on Gonterman shown in the Aces-section of this website is wrong and should be corrected.

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Old 7 November 2008, 07:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Immo_Frese View Post
Neither Heinrich Gontermann nor Erich Ludendorff received the Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden. The information on Gonterman shown in the Aces-section of this website is wrong and should be corrected.

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Agreed. R.
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Old 7 November 2008, 08:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Agreed, ditto.

The list of aviation recipients of the Bavarian Knight's Cross of the Military Max-Joseph Order is a pretty brief (and selective) group. This comes from Neal O'Connor's Volume 1:

Ltn. Walter Ritter von Lichtenberger - Sept. 9,1915

Ltn. Maximilian Ritter von Mulzer - July 8, 1916

Ltn. Hans Ritter von Adam - July 28, 1917

Oblt. Eduard Ritter von Dostler - Aug. 18, 1917

Oblt. Friedrich Ritter von Krauser - Sept. 20, 1917

Ltn. Max Ritter von Müller - Nov. 11, 1917

Ltn. Friedrich Ritter von Röth - Jan. 25, 1918

Oblt. Eduard Ritter von Schleich - June 14, 1918

Ltn. Hermann Ritter von Lechner - Oct. 5, 1918

Oblt. Robert Ritter von Greim - Oct. 23, 1918

Ltn. Georg Ritter von Hengl - Oct. 29, 1918

At the time of writing his first volume, Neal noted that "None of the six Knight's Crosses given to non-Bavarians went to a flier. Three of those awards went to Prussian staff officers, two went to captains of successful naval surface raiders and one was given to a submarine commander."

Neal also noted that the Prussian command made application to the Bavarian Orders Chancery for Manfred von Richthofen to be awarded the "Max-Joseph" on 6 May 1917, but this was turned down as he was not Bavarian. Also - Ernst Udet, though born in Frankfurt-am-Main, had lived in Munich since his family had moved there when he was a child. Somewhat nominally a Bavarian, Udet was nonetheless never awarded the Max-Joseph even though he lobbied for it after the war. He had never flown in a Bavarian formation, either...

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