Voss' Wingmen

Ahnab · 1 January 2009, 12:46 AM

I read in Tom's fabulous article (Werner Voss: Hero or Super Hero) that Voss took off with 2 wingmen on the fateful September day (Ltn.d.R Friedrich Rudenberg & Ltn.d.R Gustav S. Bellen, both flying, I believe, Pfalz D. IIIa's). Voss soon out-paced them because of his faster machine. When the fight with 56 Squardon began, his wingmen could actually see Voss taking on McCudden & Co. from a distance. What I wanted to know was, although the fight was happening at quite a distance from them and went on for almost 10 minutes, wasn't that enough time for them to close in and dive in to help Voss? I'm asking this coz I can't find any accounts of what the two of them did apart from witnessing the fight from a distance. If they were close enough to see what was going on (even if the aircraft appeared as specks in the sky), shouldn't that mean they were still, nonetheless, close enough to eventually reach the fight and help out Voss in the approximately 10 minutes the fight took to conclude?

tcrean7828 · 1 January 2009, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahnab

I read in Tom's fabulous article (Werner Voss: Hero or Super Hero) that Voss took off with 2 wingmen on the fateful September day (Ltn.d.R Friedrich Rudenberg & Ltn.d.R Gustav S. Bellen, both flying, I believe, Pfalz D. IIIa's). Voss soon out-paced them because of his faster machine. When the fight with 56 Squardon began, his wingmen could actually see Voss taking on McCudden & Co. from a distance. What I wanted to know was, although the fight was happening at quite a distance from them and went on for almost 10 minutes, wasn't that enough time for them to close in and dive in to help Voss? I'm asking this coz I can't find any accounts of what the two of them did apart from witnessing the fight from a distance. If they were close enough to see what was going on (even if the aircraft appeared as specks in the sky), shouldn't that mean they were still, nonetheless, close enough to eventually reach the fight and help out Voss in the approximately 10 minutes the fight took to conclude?

Mate,
I agree, but there was one thing standing in their way. There were between twenty and twenty-five Albartos D.V scouts above the Voss fight as noted by Ltn Hamersley of 60 Sqdn.
Individual German observers to the Voss dogfight on 23 Sept 1917, but were prevented from interfearing/kept in check by Allied Units that were in the combat area (above and below) on that day:
56 Squadron – S.E.5 and S.E.5a - (Quote:McCudden/Cadwell)
60 Squadron – S.E 5 - (Quote:McCudden/Cadwell)
20/22 Squadron - Bristol (F.2B)Fighter’s - (Quote:McCudden/Wortley)
R.E.8 Protected by Bristol Fighter’s - (Quote:McCudden)
20 Squadron – SPADS VII - (Quote:McCudden)
46 Squadron - Sopwith Pup’s - (Quote:McCudden)
45/70 Squadron - Sopwith Camel’s - several thousand feet below Voss – (Quote:Hamersley/McCudden)
29 Squadron – Nieuport 23 & 27
32/57 Squadron - D.H 5
55 Squadron – D.H.4 (Quote:McCudden)
40 Squadron – Nieuport 17 & 23

It was pretty much enjoy the show, your not going anywhere.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. hopes this answers your question

Ahnab · 1 January 2009, 03:31 AM

Wow, quite an audience! Just the squadron numbers are enough to give you a sense of just how many planes would be in a regular giant furball! Must be a couple of dozen atleast! I read in your article that the German planes were kept in check by SPAD's and Nieuports, and that only

Karl Menckhoff managed to breach the perimeter to help Voss (even if it were for a short while).

So what became of Voss' wingmen then? Who did they get into a tangle with? Were there any other victories that day by any other Allied/German airman? What became of the general melee that day? Were the 20-25 Albaroses already fighting the SPAD's/Nieuports and Voss inadvertantly flew into the vicinity, or did that happen after he was engaged by 56 Squadron?

I'm sorry I'm asking such minute questions, but I kinda find the whole situation of that day pretty fascinating! I can't imagine what must be going through Voss' mind, being in such a desperate situation, seeing his comrades trying to help but not being able to.

I've heard some people suggest that, even though Voss managed to out-climb and get higher that McCudden & Co. on a few occasions, he chose to stay and fight coz he either enjoyed the thrill of it or got greedy wanting to score numbers 49 & 50. Personally, I think whenever he climbed or dove to escape he would end up flying too close to the SPAD/Nieuport cordon, and would immediately turn around in the other direction, which would be 56 Squadron. Frankly, I think Voss was a very sharp and prudent pilot and was most certainly aware that he was getting low on fuel too, and would have definitely tried to get away before his engine died out. (I think that's what Rhys-David saw when he said Voss' prop was stationary). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle Voss' amazing feat that day, as an amateur I'm merely trying to piece together the larger picture to which Voss was a part of.

Thanx for all your help and patience Tom, really appreciate it!

Enthusiast · 1 January 2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahnab

Frankly, I think Voss was a very sharp and prudent pilot and was most certainly aware that he was getting low on fuel too, and would have definitely tried to get away before his engine died out.

Well, Voss actually had several chances during the fight to escape, but he didn't. I personally think he got greedy with his victory tally (or caught up in the thrill of the fight). If he did manage to take out some or all of McCudden's group, he could have equaled or pulled ahead of MvR in his victory tally.

When Voss' triplane went down, after he'd been sprayed with Rhys-Davids' burst of fire, it's engine stuttered and eventually stopped. I have two theories on this:

Voss shut it off in an attempt to glide down to land, unfortunately losing consciousness before he could land.

OR

It simply ran out of fuel as Voss lost consciousness and pressed against the control stick, which put it into the dive.

What was the condition of Voss' body after it was recovered? I should imagine it being like a shapeless sack of gore given the speed at which his machine crashed.

FliegerJG1 · 1 January 2009, 11:43 AM

Wow! That's quite a list of Allied planes! I had no idea that the sky was THAT busy during Voss' fight. Sheds a new light on his situation.

FliegerJG1

R Gannon · 1 January 2009, 04:38 PM

Guys

Mabe it is time to refresh ourselves with JTB McCudden's actual combat report:

"During a combat between three EA and several SE5's over Zonnebeke, one was a Triplane, 1 EA the new type Fokker Biplane and an Albatross Scout. The Fokker did not do much fighting, but a closer view of the hostile Triplane confirms my previous description of it, dated 6th Sept 1917."

Fokker Biplane being the early Brit identification for Pfalz. So either Bellen or Rudeberg was there for a short while, before bugging out.

Happy new year to all.

Russ

Ahnab · 1 January 2009, 08:31 PM

Thanx for all the info guys! Any info on who the 20-25 Albatroses were? If

Karl Menckhoff was involved (the red-nosed Albatross which tried to help Voss) then surely Jasta 3 was smack in the middle of the mix. I'm not sure, but I think the particular furball occurring above Voss & 56 Squadron must have started AFTER the Voss fight began. Does anyone have any info regarding that particular event?

tcrean7828 · 1 January 2009, 10:32 PM

Mates,
My HD went south on the 1st of the new year, and need to borrow the Wif's. Will be back to answer some questions, when I am burning again.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

R Gannon · 2 January 2009, 05:08 PM

Ahnab

I'd say Js 3, Js 4 & Js 8 were all up and about that evening along with the other kette of Js 10 led by Weigand. Pretty well fom the end of May 17 to Nov 17 - the Ypres salient was the scene of some petty intense airfighting involving more than half the Jadgstafflen and a good deal of the RFC & RNAS along with Belgian & French participation - it really was where the action was in the second half of 1917.

Cheers Russ.

Ahnab · 5 January 2009, 08:54 PM

Thanx for the info Russ. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm new to WW1 aviation and have a lot to learn from you guys.

So if one does the math, that basically means that there were about 2 dozen or so German and almost a similar (if not more) number of Allied aircraft battling for the skies when Voss and 56 Squadron met. I was just wondering if there were any claims made by any side that day during the entire giant furrball. Was Voss the only one shot down at that time & place, or were more victories scored by either side? I'm just trying to get a better picture of what went on that day. Although Voss' fight in itself is a fantastic example of WW1 air combat, the 4 dozen or so aircraft mixing it up sounds more like what I read as a kid about how the skies over France used to be towards the end of the War.