Capt. Andrew King Cowper, 24 Sq. RFC 1917-18

Introductory post...
Hi & thanks for accepting my membership.
Found you from a recent thread on Netwings (Lunatics) regarding MvR & a recent Discovery Channel program on the Red Baron. Some of you might like to correct some errors in the debate there.
Specifically, I am interested in learning more about my godfather, King Cowper, an Australian Ace with 24 Sq. RFC, and later in 79 Sq in 1919 occupation role.
I have access to some family documentation which may also interest some of you later. He also went on to become a Sq.Ldr at 11 Sq. RAAF (Rathmines, Catalinas) and my dad's CO in 1944, and later business partner.
Dad is 92 now and, while it is long overdue, I am anxious to get some of the history right, before it is too late. Dad mentioned King was forced down 3 times, and may have been involved in a victory with MvR's number 2. so I would like to try and cross reference these stories too.
Also in this centenary year of flight I would like to post some details of dad's fathers experiments, plans and flight in South Australia in 1900 and his correspondences with Hargreaves & the Wrights, which might also be appropriate for your archives.
Could someone please direct me to any threads involving 24 Sq, Major Hawker or 79 Squadron, or my godfather, and perhaps Jasta 4 or 11 operations about the dates of his listed record, or 24 Sq. locations about Aug.1917-Apr.1918

http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dc...ForumID37&omm=0

[Frank_Olynyk]

Legend,
I have located all but two of his (decisive) combat reports in the PRO in England. They can be found in Air 1/1221/204/5/2634/24 Sqdn. This exists on microfilm, which can be purchased from the PRO, although you will have to buy several other squadrons as well, since they insist on copying the entire reel of the contents of Air 1/1221 (23, 24, 25, 27, 28 and 29 Squadrons). Contact the microfilm officer through the PRO website.

I am looking for some information on Cowper for my research. Namely his actual date and place of death, and the cause if possible. All I have located are a vague reference to the 1970s.

Frank.

Legend,
All I can come up with at short notice is;
Born Bingara NSW 16 Nov 1898.
Married Miriam Goldberg 1924 at Randwick.
Enlisted WW2, RAAF 22 Feb 1942, No. 264491
Discharged 2 March 1945.
Refs, AWM 43, A176.(WW1 service details).

Many thanks Frank, (you too, Neville) for your kind & detailed reply. Will certainly followup. Have emailed PRO.
Checked with dad again and he confirms 'heart attack' as the cause of death, alone at home in Sydney & found by family (I presume sons Henry & Leon, since deceased in their mid '40's similarly). I will followup for you and try & obtain death certificate copy & maybe obituary if possible. I have anecdotal info also on his wife Miriam & family perhaps for other clues to other possible family inherited documentation, nee Goldberg, and sister Rose, wife of RAAF Wing Cdr. Bertie Griffith, dad's flying instructor (& subsequently my driving instructor many years later!).
1 correction...King was NOT dad's CO, he was 'duty pilot' & Sq. Ldr at Rathmines in '44 when dad was posted there as intell officer at the time.
Dad also mentioned a US veterans assoc... 'Blue Bonnets'? having forwarded a letter from the wife of 'next highest scoring German Ace at the time of BvR's demise' to King's wife Miriam expressing 'no grudges' due 'fair battle', but it was King who received it, since Miriam had died 10 years earlier in the '60's. King told him this personally during a visit by dad to his home in the late '60's. It is this clipping or obituary that dad is now looking for, that will also lead to a dod.
King who had a horticultural agency with Arthur Yates P/L helped dad buy his first home & farm (a flower farm) in Sydney just after the war, where I grew up. (Possible photos later, some weeks.)

Kind regards,
Rod Ayres

[baldeagle]

I always thought that if I ever build an SE-5a I'll put it in King Cowper's markings. Maybe after I finish the Nieuport 28...

Andrew King

Hi Andrew.
Whatever drew you to King out of all those magnificent men? I'm new to all this research so it is early days and I don't know his squadron markings yet, but if anyone has a photo outside the immediate family it will probably be on Rosebuds site. In fact I have very little on 24 Sqdn. yet either and no books yet too, and the search machines on the archive sites are all dutch to me! :-( There is a Pfalz D.111 of Uffz. Hageler. Jasta 15 which he (had?) captured at La Fere which might have been photographed.
I'm really curious about the Squadrons operational area particularly in Aug. 1917-Apr 1918, and of 79 Sqdn occupation ops later (1919?). Even of his CO too, because Lanoe was killed by MvR (#11) on 23/11/16 Sth of Bapaume 9 months before King joined the Squadron. And none of his flight buddies, observers or pilots of shared victories seem to have much extensive documented info yet, at least here. Hopefully I will get a family photo of him for you all soon and maybe a plane or two from dad's records anyway. (Couple of weeks when I next go up there.) The most significant item about him so far that I might be able to add, is that dad mentioned he was involved in a shared victory with 'MvR's number 2'...maybe Lothar or a Jasta 11 (or a J.2/Boelke) pilot. I'll get to the bottom of it anyway!
These records here show Lothar was shot down on 13/3/1918 by Camel pilot Augustus Oriebar and a BF.2b crew (Hughes/Claye) which is in the time King was still operational in 24 Sqdn. and Lothar CO of J.11 which I think was the main German squadron opposing his. He did shoot down an Albatros D.V over Mezieres on the 13th Mar.1918 'tho.
He was the only aussie in 24 Sqdn. but there were 4 Canadians, and 2 yanks, Lambert & Bair, according to the records here.

...ah!, I see now ...stupid me!

[baldeagle]

Yes, now you get it...
It would be interesting if you could turn up a photo of one of his machines. Some time back one of the helpful formuites posted a listing of his victories and the serial numbers of the aeroplanes he was flying. I think that during his time with 24 sqn. the unit marking was one vertical white stripe in front of the fuselage roundel, and individual letters aft of the roundel.
I flew a full size SE-5a replica a couple of times out in California a few years ago, it had a simplified structure with a steel tube fuselage, and Lycoming engine, but was a delight to fly. The owner had a Hispano-Suiza powered one as well but I never got to fly that. Would love to build one someday, if I live long enough... have to finish the N.28 first, and would like to do something German after that.

AK

[Frank_Olynyk]

Rod,
The Squadron Record Book for 24 Squadron is in the PRO, in 12 pieces:
Air 1/169/15/160/5 1916 April 2 to July 1
Air 1/169/15/160/6 1916 July 1 to July 31
Air 1/169/15/160/7 1916 July 31 to Sept 2
Air 1/170/15/160/8 1916 Sept 3 to Sept 30
Air 1/170/15/160/9 1916 Sept 30 to Nov 27
Air 1/170/15/160/10 1916 Dec 4 to 1917 Mar 25
Air 1/171/15/160/11 1917 Mar 27 to July 7
Air 1/171/15/160/12 1917 July 7 to Oct 5
Air 1/171/15/160/13 1917 Oct 6 to 1918 Mar 8
Air 1/172/15/160/14 1918 Mar 8 to May 28
Air 1/172/15/160/15 1918 May 28 to Sept 4
Air 1/172/15/160/16 1918 Sept 5 to Nov 8

I have not yet looked at it. Each of the boxes involved (169, 170, 171 and 172) will be about five inches high, so this is a lot of paper. As of last month at least, it did not exist on microfilm. Copying will be expensive; 40 pence per page to Xerox, 50 pounds per hour (I think) for time spent microfilming.

Frank.

Heartfelt thanks for those Squadron record book references Frank. Here's how for example I would like to use them...looks like it's going to cost me some!

Looks like
Air 1/171/15/160/12 1917 July 7 to Oct 5
Air 1/171/15/160/13 1917 Oct 6 to 1918 Mar 8
Air 1/172/15/160/14 1918 Mar 8 to May 28
will cover his 24 Sqdn posting dates 26 Aug 1917-11 Apr 1918. Probably boxes 171 & 172?

"Dad mentioned King was forced down 3 times, and may have been involved in a victory with MvR's number 2. so I would like to try and cross reference these stories too."

Here's a clue I think...
Andrew Cowper victory records taken from the Grub St. book Over the Trenches?

shows 3 changes of plane on the following dates...e.g
between
8-12 Mar. 1918 S.E 5a B664 which he had flown consistently from 18/2/18 scoring 8 victories
to S.E 5a C5428 ( & change of flight?)
which he then flew for 3 days until
15 Mar. scoring 2 victories.

Then on
16 Mar.?1918 S.E 5a B8407 (large serial number!..and B flight? again?) scoring 6 more victories from the 17th until another final change of plane between

23-28 Mar.1918 S.E 5a B8411 (possibly another plane in the same flight/series?) in which he scored another victory the next day 29/3/18 before being sent back to the Home Establishment.

There will also be other records for 79 Sqdn occupation in 1919, plus presumably Home Establishment records between his 24 Sqdn. & 79 Sqdn. postings (training, resting or instructing?)

So, apart from the 24 Sqdn. record books, I'm looking for cross reference on S.E 5a aircraft numbers
B664 8 Mar. 1918
C5428 15 Mar. 1918
B8407 23-28 Mar. 1918 involved in crashes or damage reports or forced landings, either side of lines, for area of 24 Sqdn ops. including photographs from various scources.

Still waiting on a cost estimate of microfilm for Air 1 on your previous reference from PRO.