Wolfram von Richthofen

[alex_revell]

Romani,
You may be right or you may be wrong. But AB seems to be an historian who is very well regarded by many authorities. Perhaps you are letting your own bias - which you are perfectly entitled to have - get in the way of an objective view of his book. However, getting down to the basics of the SCW: it was an army coup against an elected government. I've always been ashamed of my country's lack of support for the Republicans and still am. People such as Anthony Eden and Churchill were very hypocritical and would have done anything to preserve their privileged life style, even if it meant supporting the fascist dictators. Those last had many supporters in the ranks of the British aristocracy, I'm afraid. Under Franco, Spain was hardly an enlightened democracy, was it. People were still being shot for their political beliefs.

[Romani]

Originally Posted by josquin

Romani downplays the significance of the Luftwaffe attacks on civilian targets. I find him unconvincing.

Josquin, I talked to Romani and Romani was just playing devil's advocate, that the nazis were evil and capable of anything, doesn't neccesarily mean they were guilty of everything, and he regrets not having put up a more solidly backed argument to convince you. Romani suggests you do your own research on the matter.

In the time prior to the Rotterdam bombing, the British and French had agreed not to bomb civilian targets. Not only did the Germans choose to do otherwise but their record on the matter is straightforward and unambiguous since the Spanish Civil War. I believe that Hugo Sperrle and Wolfram von Richthofen knew what they were doing at Guernica and I cannot
agree that the degree of damage was unintended.

Romani has addressed this in the past in this forum and wishes to indicate that bombing of cities by the Luftwaffe didn't begin until the Battle of Britain in reprisal for a British raid on Berlin wich in turn was a reprisal to what was believed to be an attack on London wich was due to navigational error. If we do not count the bombardment of Warsaw, wich might have been a valid military target, the Luftwaffe refrained from bombing cities at the start of the war, even f the Germans had thought the French had bombed one of their border towns, wich was in fact bombed by German planes due to navigational error.

Romani knows what WvR was trying to accomplish in Guernica, blast the vital bridge near the town, and due to the simple fact that Guernica was just a big pile of matchwood waiting for a spark to ignite it, and the total absence of firemen as the city had been vacated, the fires started destroyed the entire town, an unitended consequence and a result much greater than was hoped for. The death toll, documented by the town's undertaker stands at one hundred and twenty six (126)

Romani doesn't wish to type this all over again so he directs you to the following thread in this forum were you will find more.

Axis History Forum • View topic - Guernica in Fire

Rotterdam--far from a "mistake," I believe Lackner and his superiors
knew perfectly well what they were doing. As an additional
indication that The Luftwaffe intended to inflict severe damage on
Rotterdam,

Romani apologizes as he doesn't remember enough or know enough to have an opinion on this matter. Romani says the only source he remembers and could find on a quick search was the book on the Luftwaffe by Cajus Bekker wich explains in detail and convincingly what happened in Rotterdam. The bombing was a tragic mistake as of the hundred bombers of KG54, 43 from the left column saw the abort red flares and turned away in the last second.

57 airplanes dropped from a altitude of 750 meters 158 bombs od 250 kilos and 1150 bombs of 50 kilos. In total 97 tons of bombs targetting a triangle of 2 km at the base, and trying not to hit the bridgehead of the 60 men under Oberleutnant Kerfin 1st coy FJ Regiment I.

The bombs hit some margarine and oil tanks in the port and the burning fat spread and set fire to the old wooden houses, raging unchechked and causing much destruction since the firefighting equipmet was woefully inadequate.

The death toll was 900.

Romani has not read in the years since he read this book anything that contradicts this source, but is happy to be corrected.

I second Alex Revell with respect to Beevor's
book; it is not as bad as you portrayed.
regards
josquin

Romani is in agreement, it's even worse than he remembered.

This night Romani has dinner with Romani and I will transmit Romani your regards.

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by Romani

Romani is in agreement, it's even worse than he remembered.
This night Romani has dinner with Romani and I will transmit Romani your regards.

I take it you're pretty tight with this Romani guy

[Romani]

Originally Posted by Tim West

I take it you're pretty tight with this Romani guy

Up to a point, if the law catches up with him, I will deny any knowledge or accountability for Romani's actions.

[spacecrow]

If Manfred had lived durring the Third Reich the box art for the Aurora Bf-109 would be absolutely correct.

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by Romani

Up to a point, if the law catches up with him, I will deny any knowledge or accountability for Romani's actions.

Lol, I haven't seen him around.....I think he went that way

[josquin]

Romani

I appreciate the impressive debut of Romani's doppelgaenger as a
performance, but as history it is but one statement of opinion
backed by selective research. I will not waste further time--
your's or mine--on this discussion, but merely assert my own
opinion that you have not answered all the unanswered questions
that these events raise. At least you are satisfied with your
assertions, so we're scoring 50%.

Regards

Josquin

[Romani]

Originally Posted by alex_revell

Romani,
You may be right or you may be wrong.

You left out another possibility. Maybe I simply don't know. Reader discretion advised

But AB seems to be an historian who is very well regarded by many authorities.

Wich coincidentally all are on the same side of the fence. And while I am at the task of turning sacred cows into hamburguers, John Keegan is overrated, and even the revered Christopher Duffy makes mistakes. So there!


Is hard to take Beevor book seriously when a Spanish historian found more than a hundred factual errors and still counting, wich is telling of a very sloppy writing, or pure falsehoods for shock impact when he says in page 107 "at least thirty seamen of the cruiser Almirante Cervera were hanged from the armyards" after the triumph of the uprising against the Republic. Apart from being fantasy, the Cervera didn't have armyards at all

The more pages I read, the more I remember what a load of the same old drivel and cliches it is. Enough, I am not wasting any more time in it. If you think it's a good book, is simply because you don't know, you can't tell how the author is feeding you BS.

However, getting down to the basics of the SCW: it was an army coup against an elected government.

Proving my point if you read that in Beevor book. Holding elections are one thing and a democracy working under the rule of law is another entirely different. And Spain in July 1936 was nothing of the sort.

Did you ever read in what conditions the election was carried out? Did you know that the voting results were never published?

As Stalin said , it's not the vote count that matters, but who counts the votes.

I've always been ashamed of my country's lack of support for the Republicans and still am.

*irony mode on*

At first I was amazed since I didn't color you red, but now I think this must be a fine display of the celebrated British irony... and suddenly I realize smacking my forehead you are being totally sincere!

Of course! For Britain doing something good for Spain must be tantamount to high treason! No wonder you are ashamed of such an awful mistake! That's so totally you I can't get offended at it. After all, it's the nature of the scorpion.

*irony mode off*

On my part, I don't regret at all Franco making Britain a little favor by saying "No" to Hitler when he wanted to get across Spain to take Gibraltar

Under Franco, Spain was hardly an enlightened democracy, was it.

No, and the bad news it is that it is hardly an enlightened democracy today

People were still being shot for their political beliefs.

Well, he mostly shot people whse political beliefs were about shooting other people for their political or religious beliefs. Quid pro quo. That's latin for doing unto others what others do unto you.


Ok, back to the aviation topic. I forgot to mention that the Reds were the first to begin terror bombing of civilian targets, like they did early in the war during the siege of the city of Oviedo, wich produced some ghastly scenes wich had nothing to envy to the siege of Sarajevo in the Yugoslavia war., and if they had more bombers they would have done more.

Also, that the Legion Condor importance and contribution are overrated while no full recognition is given to the Italian Aviazione Legionaria, whose bombers were the backbone of the Nationalist air support. And the ones who truly did carry out criminal attacks against civilian populations as a essay of terror bombing on their bombings of the cities of the Mediterranean coast.

To each its due.

[Romani]

Originally Posted by josquin

Romani
. I will not waste further time your's or mine--on this discussion, but merely assert my own opinion that you have not answered all the unanswered questions that these events raise.
Josquin

Josquin, I hope you didn't take offense at me being flippant, I just found it funny you addressed me in the third person and went along with it

About Guernica, it's a hoax, and the truth of the matter has been settled since the 1970s, I don't suppose you understand Spanish so I cannot recommend references, and I cannot provide the answers you want. Best I can do is suggesting the Axis History Forum to find them.

And about Rotterdam, I gave you the version of events I know, Cajus Bekker was a well known and respected German historian, and his version of events seemed well researched and believable, but then again, maybe being German he was just being an apologist, and it has been a long time so that version may have been proven incorrect or false.

Regards.

PS: I don't think the thread was a waste of time. It was an interesting discussion but completely off topic.


Josquin, I did a quick search on the AHF, and found the following wich might be of interest.

No one was charged with a crime and put on trial for the bombing of Warsaw in 1939 or the bombing of Rotterdam in 1940. Two German general officers were put on trial for the bombing of Belgrade, because the Yugoslav government had publicly declared it an "open city" before the bombing and the officers knew that. This bombing was prohibited by the 1907 Hague Convention (Hague IV), Article 25, and was consequently a war crime. That article reads:

"Art. 25. The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited." (emphasis added).

Note that the article does not prohibit the bombing of defended cities.

Warsaw was defended at the time it was bombed in 1939. Rotterdam's garrison had surrendered, but only shortly before the bombing. The news of the surrender had not reached the Luftwaffe commanders, and as a result, they did not call off the air strike. Generally, mistakes made in good faith are not considered war crimes.

And for all that is worth, former chief of the Legion Condor Hugo Sperrle, was acquited in Nuremberg trials.

[josquin]

Romani

Thank you for the references. As I read Spanish and Italian, I will
make use of them. I was aware that Sperrle was acquitted at
Nuremberg, but that is not surprising: the Nuremberg prosecutors
were really after political and SD/SS/gestapo personnel more than
military personnel. After all, the military could (and did) justify
everything either by "befehl ist befehl" or, it was not a war crime
but rather a "mistake," "error," or "unforeeable & unintended
consequence." At least, Jochen Peiper and Eugen Gnauss
made no such claims for their behavior at Malmedy!

Regards

Josquin